Opposition to Baptism

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My husband does not meet the requirements requested of him even in the “Preliminary Information For Nullity Applications,” by not ever being baptised, thus unable to provide either his or his ex wife’s baptismal certificate. The form requests that all information should be recent copies within the last 6months…his decree absolute is 10 yrs + and the oringnal and we have applied for a copy of his marriage certificate.
You are misunderstanding the preliminary form. It is simply listing all the things needed. If you aren’t baptized, then you don’t have a baptismal certificate and that particular item does not apply to you.

Again, I think it is important that you husband talk to the judicial vicar of the diocese regarding the possible application of the Pauline Privilege in his case. That is NOT a formal nullity case and it should take a lot less time.
 
You are mistaken.
You are correct and I apologise. They do need an annulment from the Church. But would not the Pauline Privilege be a bit of a stretch in this case, as both parties to the marriage were unbelievers?
 
You are right I put the financial and emotional stability of myself and my children before my faith, I should have approached the church prior to my marriage.
Yes I am confused and appreciate the time taken to guide me with this process.

Cherry picking? Maybe…I did not mean to, as I said I am deeply confused and feel very isolated from my church currently. Yes I know it is my fault for I went against the teaching of my religion. I know that I have failed in my approach to our marriage but I do without doubt believe that my children are better off in a loving home than in the situation I previously found myself in. I feel blessed my husband chose to embrace our religion.

For fear of repeating myself…I am confused and I do not have the support of my pastor.
 
I have not posted on here for a long time. I was looking for something specific and stumbled across this thread.

First, let me tell you that I sympathize with your situation. Fixing marriage irregularities is often times neither easy, nor fun.

Second, I am a priest, so perhaps I can help you understand some things. You have to realize that this last week is one of the busiest times of the year for priests. I had to turn many people away this week who had normal, run of the mill questions, simply because I didn’t have time to deal with them. My response is always a standard, “Please just call the office. The secretary will be happy to set up an appointment.”

Please understand, it’s not that priests are being rude or don’t care. But, Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil, and Easter Sunday require a great deal of time and energy to celebrate well. It’s not that we don’t want to deal with your particular situation in that exact moment. It’s that we can’t deal with it and still give the undivided attention that your situation deserves.

As I read your situation, I think 1ke is correct. It sounds like a case of Pauline Privilege. I am by no means a Canon Law expert. In fact, I struggle with what exactly to do in these cases myself. But, let me try to help you understand what is going on.

The Church assumes that ALL marriages are valid, meaning they are real, until proven otherwise. For example, when I first begin preparing a couple for marriage, there is a series of questions that I have to ask them, one of which is, “Have you ever been married before?” Just to make sure the couple understands what is being asked, I always, in a joking way, add, "In the Church? In court? Common law? Ever got drunk and flown out to Vegas on a whim and got married in a chapel by somebody that looks like Elvis (thanks, Jason Aldean)?

I ask this because even a wedding like this one, where you were drunk, have no recollection of what you did or said, with whom, where you were, etcetera, is assumed to be valid unless proven to be invalid. In such a case, that process would be rather simple. But, you still have to go through it in order to be free to marry.

Right now, the Church assumes that your husband is still married to his previous wife. To rectify that, you need to go through the process.

But, your question is more about why he can’t receive the other sacraments. There is no real easy way to say this, and I assure you I would use different, more comforting language if we were speaking in person, but it’s because your present relationship with him is adulterous. In the Church’s eyes, he is a married man, and he married to someone other than you. That situation needs to be cleared up.

When we are baptized, we renounce Satan and sin. If someone is not prepared to renounce sin, then he or she is not prepared to be baptized. This doesn’t mean we’ll never fall. We all do. But it does mean we at least try to avoid sin. To use an extreme example to illustrate this, suppose a confessed murderer approached a priest for baptism. He acknowledged committing murder, but had no remorse whatsoever. He openly admitted desiring baptism because he knows that it removes sin, and he is about to be executed. He is treating the sacraments s though they are magic. Such a man should not be baptized because he does not understand what baptism means or is.

I don’t think this describes your husband’ situation, but it is analogous. For him to receive baptism, he first must be in a state where he is prepared to receive the sacrament, and that means renouncing the sin of adultery. To do that, which I know from your sincerity, you BOTH want to do, he has to go through the annulment process.

Try talking to your priest. Now that Holy Week is over, he might have more time.
 
Thank you Tim…I just don’t understand the logic…on one hand as non baptised persons our church does not recognise the validity of my husbands first marriage.

If he is now divorced from a marriage that we don’t recognise why does this prevent him from being baptised.

Our current marriage is addressed as problematic, yet my children now live in a stable loving and faith filled environment. I question only the logic as we are taught to believe…

“In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: “For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband.” It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this “consecration” should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.” 1637?

In Corthinians Chapter 7…from verse 2

but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband…Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire…For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy…Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches. Was someone called after he had been circumcised? He should not try to undo his circumcision. Was an uncircumcised person called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God’s commandments.
Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called."

The teaching I have received in this respect I was taught that distinct human conditions are less significant than the whole new existence opened up by God’s call, we are taught that Paul urges individuals to be less concerned with changing their states of life than with answering God’s call where it finds them. To this end in compliance with our church we attempt to practice “Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer” in preparing my husband to accept the grace of conversion."

Why therefore with all the effort we have applied to the creation of a Catholic domestic faith to nurture the growth of our children are we being tried so fervently.

Reference to bigotry and racism…perhaps tongue in cheek, apologies but we attempt at all time to love others as Jesus loved us! this is the pinnacle of our families belief yet by embracing my husband as an intergral person in our home, we are asked to observe yet not receive sacraments.

I am to teach my children the forgiveness of God in a church that does not recognise the work we have put into the formation of a Catholic home, in practice but not name. It has left us very saddened.
I am sorry this is frustrating. I think you might not understand though.

The church is not saying the marriage is valid and so do this lengthy process to do away with it.

The church is saying, most likely this marriage is not valid, so let’s do the paperwork and investigation to ensure that is really the case and then move forward.

So it is part of the process. It is well worth it. Keep the faith, this is an opportunity for spiritual growth and faith.

God Bless
 
I can understand your confusion, and thus the perceived hurt caused to you by the Church. But please try and recognize, dear one, that it is your perception that is causing the hurt, not the Church. It is written in the Gospel according Matthew, "But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Why would Christ have said this had He not intended it to be true? The Church recognizes the original marriage. An annulment is to say that the sacrament never existed–therefore, a new marriage is welcome. But without an annulment, then the Church still recognizes the validity of the first marriage and can not in good conscience be party to what is openly stated by Christ himself as sinful. The logic is very clear and laid out. It is so deeply difficult when you are in the midst of it, because you love your husband and your family. This is understandable. The Church is not denying you anything, nor has she laid out formalities that are impossible to work through. But please, work with your priest or a representative from your diocesan council for guidance and assistance. Don’t walk away. You believed the Church was correct, and tried to become fully united with Her. Please don’t walk away because of this.
 
You are right I put the financial and emotional stability of myself and my children before my faith, I should have approached the church prior to my marriage.
Yes I am confused and appreciate the time taken to guide me with this process.

Cherry picking? Maybe…I did not mean to, as I said I am deeply confused and feel very isolated from my church currently. Yes I know it is my fault for I went against the teaching of my religion. I know that I have failed in my approach to our marriage but I do without doubt believe that my children are better off in a loving home than in the situation I previously found myself in. I feel blessed my husband chose to embrace our religion.

For fear of repeating myself…I am confused and I do not have the support of my pastor.
I am very sorry that your pastor is unsupportive and that you and your spouse have had disappointment and frustration along the way.

I know it seems that this is an insurmountable hurdle. But, it isn’t. This can be rectified.

Some pastors mean well but are not well versed in more complicated marriage situations. For example, some are not very familiar with the Pauline Privilege. That is why I suggest the judicial vicar of the diocese.
 
My husband does not meet the requirements requested of him even in the “Preliminary Information For Nullity Applications,” by not ever being baptised, thus unable to provide either his or his ex wife’s baptismal certificate. The form requests that all information should be recent copies within the last 6months…his decree absolute is 10 yrs + and the oringnal and we have applied for a copy of his marriage certificate.
Are you sure on the date requirement for ALL documents? Usually it is the just baptismal certificate that has to be issued within the last 6 months. The reason is because the church keeps track of all sacraments at the church where the baptism was recorded (in addition to the church where the sacrament is celebrated) - and notes them on the baptismal certificate. The baptismal certificate then lists baptism, confirmation, religious vows, marriage, and/or ordination.

Since there was no baptism, there is no certificate. You may need to provide some proof he was never baptized - witness statements or something similar. Your best course of action is to contact the person on the business card your pastor gave you. They should be able to walk you through the entire process.
 
Thank you all for your time and consideration yesterday in helping me understand the principles around the situation we found ourselves in.

Last night we sat as a family and had a full and frank discussion, children included. My husband is a good man who chose to embrace our faith to support the children and I.

Our pastor was approached before our civil ceremony, indeed he postponed our wedding because of a social invitation he was invited to, the decision to have a civil service I understand goes against Canon Law and I am sorry for that but my children live in a secure home…they have two parents. Our pastor knew of the civil marriage we approached him before hand, asked to have a church blessing. We scheduled that and on the night mass proceeded as normal, apparently he forgot.

I may not fulfil the teachings of our church but I have tried to install catholic values to my children, I understand that does not necessarily make us a true catholic home.

We won’t be pursuing his full conversion, nor have our marriage convalidated.
 
Our pastor was approached before our civil ceremony, indeed he postponed our wedding because of a social invitation he was invited to
In prior posts, you made no mention of having approached the Church for marriage. You said the opposite, that you did not. Now you say you approached it, had a wedding date all set, and on the very day the priest cancelled it.

Since your husband has a prior marriage, it is not possible that you had a wedding planned in the Catholic Church. If you were all the way to “the date” then this entire prior marriage situation would have already been taken care of.
, the decision to have a civil service I understand goes against Canon Law and I am sorry for that but my children live in a secure home…they have two parents.
And they could have that in a valid marriage if you and he would rectify the situation.
Our pastor knew of the civil marriage we approached him before hand, asked to have a church blessing. We scheduled that and on the night mass proceeded as normal, apparently he forgot.
It’s not possible for the pastor to “bless” your civil marriage in church. You are in an irregular marriage, with a spouse who has a prior bond. Until that prior bond is dealt with, there can be no convalidation, no “blessing” of your marriage.

Someone has some crossed wires here. I am not sure what your pastor said he would do, but perhaps he got guidance from his bishop that he should not being doing what you asked during Mass.
We won’t be pursuing his full conversion, nor have our marriage convalidated.
That is a real shame. These are real eternal consequences at stake here. Access to the sacraments. I hope you will reconsider.
 
Thank you all for your time and consideration yesterday in helping me understand the principles around the situation we found ourselves in.

Last night we sat as a family and had a full and frank discussion, children included. My husband is a good man who chose to embrace our faith to support the children and I.

Our pastor was approached before our civil ceremony, indeed he postponed our wedding because of a social invitation he was invited to, the decision to have a civil service I understand goes against Canon Law and I am sorry for that but my children live in a secure home…they have two parents. Our pastor knew of the civil marriage we approached him before hand, asked to have a church blessing. We scheduled that and on the night mass proceeded as normal, apparently he forgot.

I may not fulfil the teachings of our church but I have tried to install catholic values to my children, I understand that does not necessarily make us a true catholic home.

We won’t be pursuing his full conversion, nor have our marriage convalidated.
This is sad. If he has not been baptized, I think all you should need is an affidavit of non-Baptism. If his ex was not baptized either, he needs an affidavit of non-Baptism for her - but that’s it.

If NEITHER of them was baptized, AND he did not primarily leave the marriage because of you, it is possible that he may qualify for the Pauline Privilege. In this case, the bishop can dissolve a non-sacramental marriage. (This is NOT a declaration of nullity. It is an actual dissolution of the marriage.) He would do this in favour of your Catholic marriage.

I’ve been in a similar situation to yours. DH was married previously. His ex left him after they had been married almost 4 years. His marriage was declared invalid. We married civilly, and consequently could not receive the sacraments for about a year and a half. It was an extremely difficult time for us. However, in about a year and a half he received a declaration of nullity, a statement that his marriage had never been valid in the first place. We married sacramentally a few months later.
 
Thank you all for your time and consideration yesterday in helping me understand the principles around the situation we found ourselves in.

Last night we sat as a family and had a full and frank discussion, children included. My husband is a good man who chose to embrace our faith to support the children and I.

Our pastor was approached before our civil ceremony, indeed he postponed our wedding because of a social invitation he was invited to, the decision to have a civil service I understand goes against Canon Law and I am sorry for that but my children live in a secure home…they have two parents. Our pastor knew of the civil marriage we approached him before hand, asked to have a church blessing. We scheduled that and on the night mass proceeded as normal, apparently he forgot.

I may not fulfil the teachings of our church but I have tried to install catholic values to my children, I understand that does not necessarily make us a true catholic home.

We won’t be pursuing his full conversion, nor have our marriage convalidated.
😦 I hope you will reconsider. There is so much more than your family’s security at stake, and the solution is not impossible.

Come, Lord Jesus.
 
Extreme disappointment as husband not received into church during Easter Vigil.

As a widowed mum of four, I met and married my husband in a civil ceremony. We thought that a better moral stance than living together, how wrong we were.

A non baptised divorcee previously married to a non baptised partner in a civil service, legally terminated approx. 12 years ago, parish has decreed that he now must have this marriage annulled before being baptised a catholic.

This has saddened us greatly as our unity was intended to strengthen our family of faith but instead has us wondering why put in the effort at all.

The God we both believe in is not bigoted or racist and yet in attempting to embrace catholism for him self, his love for me and our children he is denied entry because of a marriage our church does not recognise…we have supplied references from his and his original wife’s family stating that neither individual was ever baptised. Can anyone instruct me why a full annulment is being requested?
To best understand the Church’s teaching on divorce and remarriage, look to Christ own words in the Gospel.
It has nothing to do with bigotry, or not wanting to strengthen a family, or have a person come into the Church.
The stands that it must be a process to find reasons to annul a marriage, God’s law being above man’s.
Since he is a Catechumen, he is considered part of the Church, the rest of the process just need to be completed.
Dcn. Frank
 
This is sad. If he has not been baptized, I think all you should need is an affidavit of non-Baptism. If his ex was not baptized either, he needs an affidavit of non-Baptism for her - but that’s it.

If NEITHER of them was baptized, AND he did not primarily leave the marriage because of you, it is possible that he may qualify for the Pauline Privilege. In this case, the bishop can dissolve a non-sacramental marriage. (This is NOT a declaration of nullity. It is an actual dissolution of the marriage.) He would do this in favour of your Catholic marriage.

I’ve been in a similar situation to yours. DH was married previously. His ex left him after they had been married almost 4 years. His marriage was declared invalid. We married civilly, and consequently could not receive the sacraments for about a year and a half. It was an extremely difficult time for us. However, in about a year and a half he received a declaration of nullity, a statement that his marriage had never been valid in the first place. We married sacramentally a few months later.
Typically the Pauline Privilege can only be done if the person has not remarried, even civilly.
It was Paul’s way to allow converts to come into the church who spouse was refusing to.
 
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