Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms

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I was wondering whether there are any American religious orders that say both the ordinary and extraordinary forms (e.g. like the German Servi Jesu et Mariae)?

Are there orders that incorporate the Latin mass and the ordinary form as active portions of formation for their seminarians? (I’m not talking about orders that have a few priests who say TLM a few times or the vernacular a few times but prefer one over the other. I’m talking about ones that recognize the legitimacy and importance of both forms.)
 
Although they are not, technically speaking, a religious order, the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius do exactly this.
The Canons of St. John are a religious congregation. They’re not an order. There are very few orders in the Latin Church. People tend to use the words “order, society, institute, congregation and association” interchangeably. It confuses most Latin Catholics.

I don’t know how many religious communities use both forms consistently, I know that the Franciscans of the Immaculate do so. I believe that the caveat is that they observe the parameters in the Franciscan missal, calendar and lectionary. The differences between the EF as celebrated by Franciscans and the Canons are minor. The most observable difference is the music. Franciscans avoid Gregorian Chant. We usually replace it with other forms of sacred music. There are many beautiful forms out music out there. You don’t have to go out to the nearest pub to find alternatives to Gregorian chant.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I was wondering whether there are any American religious orders that say both the ordinary and extraordinary forms (e.g. like the German Servi Jesu et Mariae)?

Are there orders that incorporate the Latin mass and the ordinary form as active portions of formation for their seminarians? (I’m not talking about orders that have a few priests who say TLM a few times or the vernacular a few times but prefer one over the other. I’m talking about ones that recognize the legitimacy and importance of both forms.)
The Dominicans of the Western Dominican Priory use the Dominican Rite mass and the OF mass, and the OF with Dominican Propers. Other priories are restoring the use of the Dominican Missal.
 
That’s interesting to know. Why do they not use Gregorian chant?
Francis forbid it’s use. I could not give a proper explanation here, but if you
use the search feature and find anything written by Br. JREducaton regarding the issue-
he has a wealth of knowledge on all things Franciscan!! 😉
 
The Benedictines tend to be one or the other, it’s up to the individual house to determine which to use. The abbey I am affiliated with is of the Solesmes congregation. Within that congregation there are abbeys that use the OF in the vernacular, that use the OF in the vernacular (chanted) but with Latin Gregorian chant propers and ordinary (the abbey I am associated with, Saint-Benoît-du-Lac), that chant the OF entirely in Latin (Solesmes), that chant the OF entirely in Latin on some days but in French with Latin propers and ordinary on other days (St-Wandrille… and yes yes, I know the Kyrie is Greek…), and some that use the EF.

Of those using the EF, in the Solesmes congregation, there are two that I know of: Fontgombault in France, and Clear Creek in the US.
 
That’s interesting to know. Why do they not use Gregorian chant?
Here is what is in the Rule of St. Clare

**Chapter III

The Divine Office
and fasting confession and communion.

Let the sisters who can read celebrate the Divine Office according to the custom of the Friars Minor. For this reason they may have breviaries, reading them without singing. Those who, for some reasonable cause, are at times unable to recite their hours by reading them, may, like the other sisters, say the Our Fathers**

The idea in Franciscan theology is to that the religious community should always be a single community of equals (brothers and sisters).

In the monastic communities they had the choir monks. Some were priests and some were brothers. The choir monks or the choir nuns, chanted the office. They also had the lay brothers and the lay sisters. These did not pray with the rest of the community. They prayed less hours of the Divine Office. Their vocation was and is to care for the physical well-being of the monastery, especially the choir monks and choir nuns, so that these are free to pray. I most of these communities, those who did not have a good singing voice could not become choir monks or choir nuns. A good voice was one of the signs of a vocation. The Carthusians still have it in their constitutions.

Francis and Clare wanted to get away from the monastic system. They dearly loved the Benedictines and were very close to them. In fact, both Francis and Clare were trained in the religious life by the Benedictines. We have a great deal that we carry over from them.

At the same time, the sons and daughters of Francis and Clare were to be indistinguishable from each other. They were to wear the same habit. The men were all friars and the women were all nuns. Those who were priests were to be servants to those who were not priests, not their betters. Every distinction between the members of the community was to be avoided.

There was never to be a choir for some and not for others. By reciting the Divine Office, you eliminated the choir. There was never to be a schola for mass. By eliminating Gregorian Chant, you eliminated the need for a schola. Instead, other forms of music were used. They were new in those days, today they are sacred music.

Gregorian Chant did not allow the laity to participate in the vocalizations. In the EF, when it’s a high mass, the chant is very “recto tono” so that the laity can respond. Often, there are other friars present to help. The parts of the mass such as the Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Pater Noster etc. have melodies that are very simple.

Also, Francis and Clare introduced the use of the vernacular into the mass. They sang many hymns in Italian. Francis wrote some himself. The one that we have in its totality is the Canticle of the Creatures. The others have been lost through the centuries. No one thought it was important enough to save them. We have the words, but not the melodies.

Some Franciscan communities have permission from their superiors to celebrate the EF with all the bells and whistles; but that’s a very new thing. Before Vatican II, we were never really fully Tridentine, nor did we have our own rite as do Dominicans, Carmelites and Carthusians. To use Pope Benedict’s language, we had our own form of the EF. There was a Franciscan Missal known as the Roman Seraphic Missal, which has been out of use and out of print for a very long time. Later a Roman Franciscan Missal was published for the OF. This simply means that we have our little customs that you would not notice unless you put a Franciscan side by side with an FSSP. The EF and OF follow the Roman Franciscan Calendar. If you only attend the EF at a friary, you would never know that the FSSP down the street is wearing green when the friar is wearing white.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Here is what is in the Rule of St. Clare

**Chapter III

The Divine Office
and fasting confession and communion.

Let the sisters who can read celebrate the Divine Office according to the custom of the Friars Minor.** For this reason they may have breviaries, reading them without singing. Those who, for some reasonable cause, are at times unable to recite their hours by reading them, may, like the other sisters, say the Our Fathers

The idea in Franciscan theology is to that the religious community should always be a single community of equals (brothers and sisters).

In the monastic communities they had the choir monks. Some were priests and some were brothers. The choir monks or the choir nuns, chanted the office. They also had the lay brothers and the lay sisters. These did not pray with the rest of the community. They prayed less hours of the Divine Office. Their vocation was and is to care for the physical well-being of the monastery, especially the choir monks and choir nuns, so that these are free to pray. I most of these communities, those who did not have a good singing voice could not become choir monks or choir nuns. A good voice was one of the signs of a vocation. The Carthusians still have it in their constitutions.

Francis and Clare wanted to get away from the monastic system. They dearly loved the Benedictines and were very close to them. In fact, both Francis and Clare were trained in the religious life by the Benedictines. We have a great deal that we carry over from them.

At the same time, the sons and daughters of Francis and Clare were to be indistinguishable from each other. They were to wear the same habit. The men were all friars and the women were all nuns. Those who were priests were to be servants to those who were not priests, not their betters. Every distinction between the members of the community was to be avoided.

There was never to be a choir for some and not for others. By reciting the Divine Office, you eliminated the choir. There was never to be a schola for mass. By eliminating Gregorian Chant, you eliminated the need for a schola. Instead, other forms of music were used. They were new in those days, today they are sacred music.

Gregorian Chant did not allow the laity to participate in the vocalizations. In the EF, when it’s a high mass, the chant is very “recto tono” so that the laity can respond. Often, there are other friars present to help. The parts of the mass such as the Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Pater Noster etc. have melodies that are very simple.

Also, Francis and Clare introduced the use of the vernacular into the mass. They sang many hymns in Italian. Francis wrote some himself. The one that we have in its totality is the Canticle of the Creatures. The others have been lost through the centuries. No one thought it was important enough to save them. We have the words, but not the melodies.

Some Franciscan communities have permission from their superiors to celebrate the EF with all the bells and whistles; but that’s a very new thing. Before Vatican II, we were never really fully Tridentine, nor did we have our own rite as do Dominicans, Carmelites and Carthusians. To use Pope Benedict’s language, we had our own form of the EF. There was a Franciscan Missal known as the Roman Seraphic Missal, which has been out of use and out of print for a very long time. Later a Roman Franciscan Missal was published for the OF. This simply means that we have our little customs that you would not notice unless you put a Franciscan side by side with an FSSP. The EF and OF follow the Roman Franciscan Calendar. If you only attend the EF at a friary, you would never know that the FSSP down the street is wearing green when the friar is wearing white.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br. JR

Thank you very much for your thorough response. It explains the situation very well. I had all but forgotten that the monastic orders used to have choir monks/nuns and lay brothers/sisters because, I think, apart from the Carthusians, that is no longer so. As an aside: where do Carmelites fit? Are they monastics or mendicants? I ask because your explanation reminded me that when I was at school we visited a Carmelite monastery. It had both nuns and lay sisters.
 
Br. JR

Thank you very much for your thorough response. It explains the situation very well. I had all but forgotten that the monastic orders used to have choir monks/nuns and lay brothers/sisters because, I think, apart from the Carthusians, that is no longer so. As an aside: where do Carmelites fit? Are they monastics or mendicants? I ask because your explanation reminded me that when I was at school we visited a Carmelite monastery. It had both nuns and lay sisters.
The Carmelite family is very similar in structure to the Franciscan family. It has four branches, just like Franciscans do.

Carmelite men are mendicant friars. The term friar is just bad Latin for Frater. Until the about the 1700s or early 1800s, all mendicants, whether priest or not went by Brother. Priests were not allowed to be called Father, because it would set them apart from their confreres. The Carmelites and Franciscan Friars have always had brothers who are not priests, but they are not properly Lay Brothers. Their vocation is the same as those friars who are priests. It is not to take care of the priests or those in choir, as is the case in a Carthusian house. They are canonically lay, meaning that they are not ordained. But they are not part of the laity. They are part of the consecrated religious.

The women can be either nuns or sisters. The nuns are monastic. The Carmelite nuns have been known to lave lay sisters, as do the Benedictines and Carthusians. The Poor Clare nuns (Franciscan), never had lay sisters.

Franciscans and Carmelites also have a secular oder. Francis founded the first secular order in history. Soon the Dominicans and Carmelites followed suit. These are real order with a very real profession. The are brothers and sisters who remain in the secular world. Some are diocesan priests, bishops, and even popes. Many are husbands and wives. Others are single men and women. The follow the rule of the respective order. They have a constitution that shows them how to live the rule in the secular world. They are the bridge between the consecrated life and the secular Catholic.

In addition, many women felt called to live according to the Franciscan or Carmelite spirituality, but God was not calling them to the monastic life, but to a community life outside of the monastery where they would teach, nurse and care for those in need. These women received permission to gather in groups. They became the first congregations of Franciscan Sisters and Carmelite Sisters. The Dominicans also followed suit.

A sister is not a nun. She makes different vows and her live is much more active in the apostolate of the Church. The Church values her contribution to the apostolic effort of the Church and supports her community life of prayer and sisterhood.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The Carmelite family is very similar in structure to the Franciscan family. It has four branches, just like Franciscans do.

Carmelite men are mendicant friars. The term friar is just bad Latin for Frater. Until the about the 1700s or early 1800s, all mendicants, whether priest or not went by Brother. Priests were not allowed to be called Father, because it would set them apart from their confreres. The Carmelites and Franciscan Friars have always had brothers who are not priests, but they are not properly Lay Brothers. Their vocation is the same as those friars who are priests. It is not to take care of the priests or those in choir, as is the case in a Carthusian house. They are canonically lay, meaning that they are not ordained. But they are not part of the laity. They are part of the consecrated religious.

The women can be either nuns or sisters. The nuns are monastic. The Carmelite nuns have been known to lave lay sisters, as do the Benedictines and Carthusians. The Poor Clare nuns (Franciscan), never had lay sisters.

Franciscans and Carmelites also have a secular oder. Francis founded the first secular order in history. Soon the Dominicans and Carmelites followed suit. These are real order with a very real profession. The are brothers and sisters who remain in the secular world. Some are diocesan priests, bishops, and even popes. Many are husbands and wives. Others are single men and women. The follow the rule of the respective order. They have a constitution that shows them how to live the rule in the secular world. They are the bridge between the consecrated life and the secular Catholic.

In addition, many women felt called to live according to the Franciscan or Carmelite spirituality, but God was not calling them to the monastic life, but to a community life outside of the monastery where they would teach, nurse and care for those in need. These women received permission to gather in groups. They became the first congregations of Franciscan Sisters and Carmelite Sisters. The Dominicans also followed suit.

A sister is not a nun. She makes different vows and her live is much more active in the apostolate of the Church. The Church values her contribution to the apostolic effort of the Church and supports her community life of prayer and sisterhood.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thanks!🙂
 
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