Original sin and germs

[roseproject]

As we are all aware, bad sorts of germs are a big reason why we get sick, yet these same germs/bacteria also have other, necessary roles in the world that don’t have to do with getting us sick. Then, there is also good bacteria, and without bacteria, we wouldn’t have things like cheese or other kinds of food that requires the process of decomposition and the like.

So, do you think germs interfering with the human body in negative ways was caused by original sin? Do you think these germs existed before the fall? Then again, single celled organisms and the like were probably some of the first forms of life on earth so I don’t suppose the latter would be the case…I think?

What do you think?

 

[Vico]

As we are all aware, bad sorts of germs are a big reason why we get sick, yet these same germs/bacteria also have other, necessary roles in the world that don’t have to do with getting us sick. Then, there is also good bacteria, and without bacteria, we wouldn’t have things like cheese or other kinds of food that requires the process of decomposition and the like.

So, do you think germs interfering with the human body in negative ways was caused by original sin? Do you think these germs existed before the fall? Then again, single celled organisms and the like were probably some of the first forms of life on earth so I don’t suppose the latter would be the case…I think?

What do you think?

We know that Adam and Eve lost gifts, including bodily immortality. These are not natural capabilities but extended. There is no mention of all living things having the preternatural gift of immortality.

Fr. Hardon wrote “The three gifts of bodily immortality, integrity and infused knowledge are called *preternatural *because they are not strictly due to human nature but do not, of themselves, surpass the capacities and exigencies of created nature as such.”

 

[GEddie]

Without “the fall”, in all likelihood, we would have the same level of control over every cell in our bodies and our body chemistry that we now have over our limbs. While we would have the same bodies, our souls would **perfectly **keep them alive.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GLam8833]

Those Bad bacteria would have had NO power to
harm or kills us, b/c in the NEW heavens and NEW
earth, “the lion will lie down with the lamb”, and “they
shall neither destroy or harm in all My holy Mountain.”

 

[cfauster]

Catholic Answers asks “Was There Death Before the Fall?”

 

[cfauster]

Another Catholic source:

"According to the well-known Augustinian consideration, at the beginning of human history, God gave men and women, despite their being creatures, the “capacity not to die” (posse non mori, cf. De Genesi ad litteram, VI, 36,25: CSEL 28,197): resurrection (or a state of union with God no longer reversible) would have represented the immediate crowning achievement of each historical life, without the interruption of death. This does not mean that physiological laws would have been invalidated, and that human beings would have continued their earthy life indefinitely: what is promised as achievement of the universal history in a redeeming history marked by sin, could have been the achievement of each individual life if there had been no sin …

From inters.org/death

 

[truetofaith]

In the same way God said the ground would produce thorns & thistles after the “Fall,” I’m sure the bacteria that cause illness were now activated.

 

[Beryllos]

What do you think?

God, in his infinite wisdom and goodness, created life with an incredible power to adapt to any and all habitats, … some of which happen to be in other organisms. You know that some bacteria cause diseases, but good bacteria also keep you healthy in various ways. Bacteria in your intestine fight off bad organisms and help your digestion. Bacteria on your skin defend you from things like yeast and fungus.

Inside most of your cells, there are tiny energy-conversion organelles called mitochondria. You couldn’t live without them, and scientists think they developed from bacteria which teamed up with other cells over a billion years ago.

Inside the cells of green plants, there are tiny sunlight converters called chloroplasts. Yup, they are thought to have developed from photosynthetic bacteria which joined up with other organisms around a billion years ago.

So, if we didn’t have bacteria, where would we be? Perhaps God created bacteria in order that other life, including humans, could thrive.

This reminds me of a passage in the Catechism:
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” toward its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
and
314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face,” will we fully know the ways by which—even through the dramas of evil and sin [and germs?] —God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.

 

[cfauster]

Those Bad bacteria would have had NO power to
harm or kills us, b/c in the NEW heavens and NEW
earth, “the lion will lie down with the lamb”, and “they
shall neither destroy or harm in all My holy Mountain.”

I interpret that wonderful text to be about the new created world (heavens and earth) rather than the old (and present) one, but perhaps your reference to it still applies to the extent that the pre-sin Eden resembled the promised new, redeemed creation?

 

[cfauster]

I interpret that wonderful text to be about the new created world (heavens and earth) rather than the old (and present) one, but perhaps your reference to it still applies to the extent that the pre-sin Eden resembled the promised new, redeemed creation?

By the way, on another thread I quoted from an essay by a Catholic theologian who suggests that maybe we should not assume that such texts about the future redeemed creation really apply to the original creation.

 

[roseproject]

God, in his infinite wisdom and goodness, created life with an incredible power to adapt to any and all habitats, … some of which happen to be in other organisms. You know that some bacteria cause diseases, but good bacteria also keep you healthy in various ways. Bacteria in your intestine fight off bad organisms and help your digestion. Bacteria on your skin defend you from things like yeast and fungus.

Inside most of your cells, there are tiny energy-conversion organelles called mitochondria. You couldn’t live without them, and scientists think they developed from bacteria which teamed up with other cells over a billion years ago.

Inside the cells of green plants, there are tiny sunlight converters called chloroplasts. Yup, they are thought to have developed from photosynthetic bacteria which joined up with other organisms around a billion years ago.

So, if we didn’t have bacteria, where would we be? Perhaps God created bacteria in order that other life, including humans, could thrive.

This reminds me of a passage in the Catechism:
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” toward its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
and
314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face,” will we fully know the ways by which—even through the dramas of evil and sin [and germs?] —God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.

Seeing as both the constructive and destructive aspects of nature have always existed in physical creation as a part of God’s good plan…in other words, I’m right in assuming that corrosion, fire, thunderstorms, etc. have existed before the fall, do you suppose that certain bacteria invading our bodies and making us sick is part of our loosing harmony with creation?

"Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.~Catechism, 400: 282, 283.

 

[Beryllos]

Seeing as both the constructive and destructive aspects of nature have always existed in physical creation as a part of God’s good plan…in other words, I’m right in assuming that corrosion, fire, thunderstorms, etc. have existed before the fall, do you suppose that certain bacteria invading our bodies and making us sick is part of our loosing harmony with creation?

"Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.~Catechism, 400: 282, 283.

I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.

I really don’t know how strongly the Church holds to that position; but I’d long thought that without a fall, we would still need our “spiritual bodies” (pneumatikon soma) for life everlasting, but would gain them without the hideousness we now know as natural death.

ICXC NIKA

 

[truetofaith]

I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.

Wow, I’m astonished at the things I read on CAF…It is so foreign to what I learned in Catholic school or what I’ve heard from preachers like Billy Graham or other Christian denominations.

I thought error would be resolved on CAF…but more error is creeping in.

It may be time to leave, before my Faith is completely contaminated!

 

[Beryllos]

Wow, I’m astonished at the things I read on CAF…It is so foreign to what I learned in Catholic school or what I’ve heard from preachers like Billy Graham or other Christian denominations.

I thought error would be resolved on CAF…but more error is creeping in.

It may be time to leave, before my Faith is completely contaminated!

Indeed, when it comes to theology, one should not rely on group-sourcing.

Tell me what you were taught. In response to your post, I have reviewed the Catechism section on the fall and looked up a few Scripture passages. I am open to discussion.

 

[truetofaith]

Indeed, when it comes to theology, one should not rely on group-sourcing.

Tell me what you were taught. In response to your post, I have reviewed the Catechism section on the fall and looked up a few Scripture passages. I am open to discussion.

Just read Genesis 2:17 “when you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, surely you will die.” -

How can you say, “I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.”

 

[Beryllos]

Just read Genesis 2:17 “when you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, surely you will die.” -

How can you say, “I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.”

Figurative language?

 

[Vico]

I don’t have an answer, because I don’t take a literal interpretation of the fall, or specifically that there was was no death or disease prior to sin.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit in the Garden before the Fall. So looks like fruit died. I think the Genesis reference to death applies to humans.