Original Sin, Baptism and the Atonement

[MT1926]

I heard this touched on the other day on CAL and thought I would post it to see if smarter minds than mine had more insight into this topic. I found what was said very interesting and wish Father would have spent an entire hour on the subject.

Basically, it goes like this.

As Catholics I understand we believe Original sin is not a “SIN” per say but it is better defined as a loss of our inheritance. The inheritance being God’s grace.

Father went on to say that the Grace our original parents lost for us leaves us with a lack of certain things. Our Lord, through the Atonement, came to restore the gifts of original justice. First by divine Grace. Then little by little the restoration of our Integrity and our Faculties. Finally the last great Grace immortality and eternal life in the Resurrection of the dead.

That’s where he ended it but I would have loved to hear an entire sermon on this. When Father said “little by little” It really got me thinking about the sacraments. The callers original question was why we need Baptism if the Atonement was sufficient to save everyone.

From my understanding original sin deprived us of the Divine gifts. These would be sanctifying grace, the beatific vision, immortality, pain and suffering, the complete mastery over our passions and other sins and the concupiscence to sin.

When Father said “first by divine Grace” he later went on to tie this to Baptism.

When he said “Then little by little the restoration of our Integrity and our Faculties.” He didn’t go into detail here but this statement is the heart of my question. Any thoughts on this?

In my mind the Sacrament of Baptism brings us back into covenant with God / restores sanctifying Grace.

The Sacrament of Penance helps us to deal with sin and concupiscence to sin. Face it you get in the habit of honestly going to confession once a month, it should help you pull the reigns tight on sin.

The Sacraments of Holy Orders and Matrimony would help us to become masters over our passions.

The Sacraments of Confirmation and Eucharist would bring us closer to God and prepare us for eternal life with God.

The Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick would prepare us for the beatific vision.

Any thoughts on these would be appreciated.

On a final note. What really spoke to me was when Father pointed out that the restoration in the Atonement isn’t complete until the second coming. When we finally get our resurrected immortal bodies is when everything we lost in the Fall will be given back to us and the Atonement will be complete. That statement to me shows that the Atonement isn’t a one an done. God set it up as a process that won’t be complete until the second coming. Which showed me even more the importance of the sacraments.

Sorry this was so long.

I hope you guys can point me to more information in regards to this.

God Bless

 

[Shakuhachi]

Thank you. Nice reflection and good questions. I think it brings us to a deeper reflection on “atonement” or at-one-ment. It is all about reconnecting, healing, restoring unity not only with God but with each other.

 

[MT1926]

Thanks for the response. I found what Father said to be enlightening. Just wish someone could help me delve a little deeper into the topic.

God Bless

 

[Gorgias]

Some interesting stuff here, @MT1926. I wish I’d heard the original talk, too!

Some of the nuances of what you’ve written, though, seem… interesting:

Father went on to say that the Grace our original parents lost for us leaves us with a lack of certain things. Our Lord, through the Atonement, came to restore the gifts of original justice. First by divine Grace. Then little by little the restoration of our Integrity and our Faculties. Finally the last great Grace immortality and eternal life in the Resurrection of the dead.

Interesting. I’m not sure that I’d call it a “restoration of lost gifts”, per se. As St Pope John Paul II taught us, God isn’t trying to restore us to the Garden of Eden; rather, He’s trying to lead us to heaven. We’re not ‘looking back’, but ‘looking forward’.

Will we be ‘perfect’ in heaven, and perfectly in tune with God’s plan for us? Absolutely. Will this mean that we had experienced grace and responded to it? Definitely. However, “original justice” and “integrity” aren’t restored until we reach heaven. Until then, we are still wounded by the lack of what was lost in the Fall of Adam. Grace helps us overcome these losses, but we never fully gain them back – after all, what the Church teaches is that ‘final perseverance’ is something not recognized as attained until the end.

When Father said “little by little” It really got me thinking about the sacraments.

Nice insight!

From my understanding original sin deprived us of the Divine gifts. These would be sanctifying grace, the beatific vision, immortality, pain and suffering, the complete mastery over our passions and other sins and the concupiscence to sin.

We would say that Adam and Eve were not in possession of the Beatific Vision.

My personal take is that “pain and suffering” would have been part of physical life. I conclude this by seeing that, among the punishments that proceed from the Fall, is an increase in the pain of childbirth. Not the onset of pain, but intensification. YMMV.

The Sacraments of Holy Orders and Matrimony would help us to become masters over our passions.

Hmm… how so?

The Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick would prepare us for the beatific vision.

Well… strictly speaking, this is a sacrament for healing, rather than preparation for death.

That statement to me shows that the Atonement isn’t a one an done. God set it up as a process that won’t be complete until the second coming. Which showed me even more the importance of the sacraments.

Another good insight!

 

[MT1926]

Interesting. I’m not sure that I’d call it a “restoration of lost gifts”, per se. As St Pope John Paul II taught us, God isn’t trying to restore us to the Garden of Eden; rather, He’s trying to lead us to heaven. We’re not ‘looking back’, but ‘looking forward’.

Totally agree. I don’t think Father was going in that direction. He was basically addressing a question on Baptism and was just pointing out what was lost in the Fall. If someone were to ask me a week ago what we lost I would have just answered Grace. I never really thought of the other “gifts” we lost as well.

However, “original justice” and “integrity” aren’t restored until we reach heaven. Until then, we are still wounded by the lack of what was lost in the Fall of Adam. Grace helps us overcome these losses, but we never fully gain them back – after all, what the Church teaches is that ‘final perseverance’ is something not recognized as attained until the end.

Yes, well said. This is why Father’s comments really spoke to me. We are on a journey and we are still wounded on that journey. There’s no guarantees that we won’t succumb to our wounds and fall. It’s all about final perseverance.

We would say that Adam and Eve were not in possession of the Beatific Vision.

Ooops, you are correct. Not the Vision but they did walk with God, which we are able to do with Grace.

The Sacraments of Holy Orders and Matrimony would help us to become masters over our passions.

Well from the view point of a husband, the past 26 years of marriage has taught me to understand my passions better. Focusing on my spouse and the importance of our relationship, and God in our relationship, has help me with my wandering eyes. I just wish I knew and understood 26 years ago what I understand now about the meaning of a “Sacramental Marriage”. I think life would have been a lot less stressful if I understood my roll better.

I went to an Evangelical (Non-denominational Calvinist leaning) wedding a few weeks ago and was shocked while sitting there listening to the preacher. Not once did he mention the importance of marriage or family or that the love between a husband and wife should be as Christ’s love for the Church. He preached on not letting your marriage get in the way of your relationship with Jesus. I understand we put God first but to not preach on the importance of marriage at a wedding just seemed to devalue the sacrament of marriage.

Don’t know maybe it was just me, but it seemed out of place.

Thanks for the reply,

God Bless