Orthodox Divine Liturgy: More like TLM or NO?

[Woodstock]

The Ruthenians also allow it when the crowd numbers over 75. When I’ve seen it, it has always been a non-ordained lay man, which is allowed by the Ruthenians. If a sub-deacon had been present, he would take precedence. The Ruthenians have few sub-deacons.

Confirmed here. One additional eucharistic minister allowed for every 75 communicants, and if there is no capable ordained men then laity may be used. It does not say the laity must be male.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Now, for a followup question: In many of the Conciliar documents on the Liturgy, there is mention of the “restoration” of the Liturgy, the result of which is our Novus Ordo Mass. Aside from the elements of music, sacredness, and beauty, were they trying to get the Mass closer to the DL by making it, among other things, more interactive?

Thanks!

I do think they were trying to restore participation “participatio actuosa” and had in mind, as Sacrosanctum Concilium states:

1. Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Which is just reiterating something Pope St. Pius X had said (as I remember).

Now, this applies to Sacrosanctum Concilium and what most of the Church Fathers had in mind. When it comes to the committee headed by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (which actually implemented the reforms) it seems as if the goal was to get the liturgy closer to a Protestant worship service, not necessarily the Divine Liturgy. The thought was that if obstacles Protestants found offensive could be removed or downplayed in the liturgy the road to reconciliation would be easier.

Thus I don’t think, in general, that in the actual implemenation of the committee that reuonion with the Orthodox via the reformation of the liturgy was in mind. In fact, if anything, I think the reformation of the liturgy has only hindered reuonion with the Orthodox as they tend to look askance at large scale reformation of the liturgy in the first place.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I actually think that the NO and the TLM are closer to each other than they are to the DL. These are Western Liturgies and the DL is an Eastern Liturgy.

 

[Barbieflausa]

this is a very nice thread you all have here…the “mutual” respect for each others “variations” is lovely. As one who has lived her life being a “bridge” between my “eastern” and “western” family…I’d live to give you all a great big OPA!

(I can only speak of the DL, as that is all I know)…the one aspect I am learning to enjoy is how each different parish has its own “flair” that reflects it community. My particular church loses half its members in the summertime…so we dont have a choir then. But in the winter when our snowbird residents return…we have a full choir, two cantors, and sometimes 4 celebrants (as many retired priests come to help out).

((I may be Greek by birth, but a Christian by Grace))
:tiphat:

 

[Volodymyr]

I’ve seen lay Eucharistic ministers in a Divine Liturgy. The Ruthenians allow it.

I’ve seen Eastern Catholic low liturgies all spoken and over in 30-45 minutes.

Original title was RE: Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Ukrainian Orthodox church and Russian Orthodox church do not have such things as so-said “Lay Eucharistic ministers”. Only priest or bishop may communicate faithful. Never can be diakon or hypodiakon who communicates lay persons. I have been told Greek Orthodox allow diakon to do such, but this is different from Orthodox practice elsewhere.

Diakon is different for Orthodox - he is a golotai- a voice to announce. He invites to communicate, but does not communicte lay persons. An hypodiakon is a servant of the bishop during archpriestly liturgies or such.

Very sad to hear Ukrainian Catolic church is having to accept such distortion of service of diakons to be like Latin Church - perhaps many will be shocking by this and return to Orthodoxy perhaps coming back through so-called Kyivan patriarchal church, which has good relations with Greko Catolics. I say this not to be offending but because I believe in unity of Christians - but not unity which forces one church to be more like another.

[/QUOTE]

 

[A.Pelliccio]

TLM is inherently more beautiful than the new Mass. I am not arguing that is any more valid or anything like that but in my opinion, and I guess beauty is relative, it is like comparing kindergarten finger paintings with the works of Da Vinci.