Orthodox for a day

[AlanFromWichita]

OK, I’m going to try an exercise.

I know what it’s like from the receiving end when a “faithful Catholic” is trying to urge a “heterodox Catholic” to adopt his/her own view of What Catholicism Says.

I think I’ll switch sides. For now, until further notice I’m playing like I’m mentally assenting. Maybe it’s what I really want to do, and just can’t let go of my prideful need for self-importance out of the way and admit it. It’s like I’m afraid to get on those skis and hold the rope because I don’t want to look foolish if I stand up.

OK, here I am. Three times, "I’m no longer in Kansas Dorothy – I’m in Vatican City with a host of wonderful orthodox Catholic priests and laity.

I’ll start now. The Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit to be Free from Error in all matters of faith and morals. Please no arguing about what consitutes faith and morals in any given situation. All such discussions are just emotional and spiritual “jousting” in which we are trying to test each other – and get it done. Therefore, don’t get upset. If you get upset, that gives power to your adversary, because it can be used against the objectivity of your testimony.

She has never changed her teachings, and although she has had practices by some of her sinful staff members that sometimes counter the truth, the Church herself cannot err in these matters. She can learn a fuller truth, but she cannot change truth because – well it just doesn’t work that way.

This is only a drill for me, and is not intended to be humorous or sarcastic. Take it that way if you must, but I’m actually planning to do this and if you wish to be my self appointed spiritual director, just write, “as you SASD I think I need to educate you on a point.” Go ahead. Quite literally I asked for it. I do not make any such invitations for posters to do that to each other.

I’m opening up my heart to an Internet audience, in my own way. If you don’t like what you see, hold up a mirror and see if you can send me a snapshot so I can see what it is you’re seeing.

Am I sincere about this? I think I am; I guess I’ll “toss it up the flagpole and see who salutes.”

It should be interesting at least for one person. Even if you choose not to respond you still have made a choice.

Thanks in advance for endulging. Exiting soap box now.

Open fire.

Comments? (Please no compliments, they just feed my pride. If you’d like to add or oppose me, have at it. This is immunity from offense day for me too.)

Or one click and I’m gone – blam.

Alan

 

[Jessica]

Dear Alan,

I would like to begin this post by apologizing to you. You seem to have a negative view of “orthodox” Catholics, and this could only have been brought on by an “orthodox” Catholic who lacked charity in his or her discussions with you. Charity is the heart of Christian virtues and springs from the love of Christ, so I truly apologize if these Catholics have been uncharitable toward you.

Having said that, your post somewhat confuses me. You said you do not wish to be sarcastic, but your post seems saturated with sarcastic remarks. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted it.

Although I have not read any of your other posts, you seem to me to be very passionate and intelligent, capable of a charitable discussion on the issues in the Church which are bothering you. You also seem very fiesty.

I am only 21 years old and am an amatuer theologian at best, but I would be more than happy to enter into dialogue with you, if you will please give me the exact issues or circumstances which you are dealing with. I am one of the orthodox Catholics you speak of, but hopefully you will find my orthodoxy to spring from my love of Christ and desire to let Him love others through me.

Jessica

P.S. If you’re up for a challenge, either respond to this post or send me a private message. I can be fiesty, too.

 

[Jessica]

Is there any particular issue you’re having trouble with? Or do you seem “orthodox” Catholics as too rigid/legalistic, etc?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Jessica:

I would like to begin this post by apologizing to you. You seem to have a negative view of “orthodox” Catholics, and this could only have been brought on by an “orthodox” Catholic who lacked charity in his or her discussions with you. Charity is the heart of Christian virtues and springs from the love of Christ, so I truly apologize if these Catholics have been uncharitable toward you.

I appreciate that. While what you suspect is true, I am really not personally offended. I am excited about all this, because I have been listening to “both” sides and hearing calls for unity but little action being taken. I believe that God’s will is done, and there is a reason that everything happens.

Having said that, your post somewhat confuses me. You said you do not wish to be sarcastic, but your post seems saturated with sarcastic remarks. Forgive me if I have misinterpreted it.

It did occur to me that I start off with a somewhat sarcastic remark, which beckons back to some points I made in the past about “loaded words.” I first pointed this out in the context of defending the “heterodox” which I decided that I was, technically, according to somebody’s definition. A word does not have to be negative to be loaded, and my point was that orthodox often say things like “a faithful Catholic thinks this or that” as opposed to, by implication, an unfaithful Catholic.

Part of it is I’m not sure what to expect. One thing that is both problem and a strength for me is that I tend to see Both Sides of practically anything, and sometimes I even see Both Sides of the traditional/progressive argument. The problem is, I tend to stick up for the underdog, or for the one who is not claiming to speak for authorities that aren’t involved in the conversation.

This kept me fixated in frustration, because I kept seeing threads about unity, and it was always the same. When are the heterodox going to get their act together and come join us truly happy folk? I could see how they were Pushing Us Away with every attempt, however sincere, of being charitable.

I just want to come on this team for a while, but I guess I can’t forget my roots in that I’m still maybe burying a few digs in here and there.

Although I have not read any of your other posts, you seem to me to be very passionate and intelligent, capable of a charitable discussion on the issues in the Church which are bothering you. You also seem very fiesty.

Thank you. I really enjoyed that description, because that’s kind of how I see myself. That means that to you, I have given you a first impression that I think it well suited for my taste, anyway.

I am only 21 years old and am an amatuer theologian at best, but I would be more than happy to enter into dialogue with you, if you will please give me the exact issues or circumstances which you are dealing with. I am one of the orthodox Catholics you speak of, but hopefully you will find my orthodoxy to spring from my love of Christ and desire to let Him love others through me.

What I’m trying to do here, is at least rhetorically switch sides and try to pay attention to the “orthodox” view. That doesn’t mean I want to clone onto orthodox stereotypes. That is, since I have been arguing the other side, I am very sensitive to things that are even the slightest judgmental, as you seem to be sensitive. This “sensitivity training,” at the risk of sounding multiculturalist, helps only if used in combination with love, in which case it can bridge gaps.

I’m really not sure where to take this, except that I’m trying to maybe see a different point of view. The ultimate goal here for me is to investigate interpersonal communication techniques so that we can work toward unity, building on our strengths instead of staying separate over relative trifles.

P.S. If you’re up for a challenge, either respond to this post or send me a private message. I can be fiesty, too.

Thanks for the offer. I like your attitude!

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Jessica:

Is there any particular issue you’re having trouble with? Or do you seem “orthodox” Catholics as too rigid/legalistic, etc?

No, the problem I see that we orthodox have, is that we see the beauty and simplicity of the True Teachings Of The Church, and just can’t grasp how others don’t see that. It’s like they can’t hear what we say.

Due to my background, I would like to be able to help cut through heterodox resistance and try to distill the issues at hand into components. It’s like if the enemy is heterodoxy, then I know how to think enemy thoughts. There are ways of isolating what we do and don’t agree on, and half the time that’s the whole battle. We were arguing the same thing, but using words that made it sound different sometimes. We were in what one might call “violent agreement.”

We do seem to be viewed as too rigid and legalistic, which seems strange because truth is truth and how is it being too rigid to simply insist that we stray not from the truth? How is it legalistic to assert what we actually do profess to believe as Catholics?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Omigod.

I just can’t help myself I guess. When I see an opportunity for what I consider comic relief I can’t stay allied with any “particular” side.

This did it for me. This broke the camels’ back. I thought for almost 10 seconds, then decided it was just too good to leave alone. Rattatat blam. Posted. Whew. My propensity to be a jerk outweighed my spiritual ambitions! :banghead:

I am sincere about working for true unity, and I do like to try to see both sides. Both sides of any issue – even issues involving What is Truth – are held by sincere children of God so I try to hear the underlying message and help work through the presuppositions and bad vibes when someone really wants to. .

Alan

 

[Isidore_AK]

AlanFromWichita:

No, the problem I see that we orthodox have, is that we see the beauty and simplicity of the True Teachings Of The Church, and just can’t grasp how others don’t see that. It’s like they can’t hear what we say.

Due to my background, I would like to be able to help cut through heterodox resistance and try to distill the issues at hand into components. It’s like if the enemy is heterodoxy, then I know how to think enemy thoughts. There are ways of isolating what we do and don’t agree on, and half the time that’s the whole battle. We were arguing the same thing, but using words that made it sound different sometimes. We were in what one might call “violent agreement.”

We do seem to be viewed as too rigid and legalistic, which seems strange because truth is truth and how is it being too rigid to simply insist that we stray not from the truth? How is it legalistic to assert what we actually do profess to believe as Catholics?

Alan

Personally, I don’t understand dissenters. What is so hard about accepting what the Church teaches? What is so hard about obeying? Why is it that many today have to do things their own way? Why profess to be Catholic, and then stand against the Church. Either be a Catholic, or leave. Its pretty simple…

I don’t mean to imply any insult, I just don’t understand why they don’t ‘toe the line’ so to speak…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Isidore_AK:

Personally, I don’t understand dissenters. What is so hard about accepting what the Church teaches? What is so hard about obeying? Why is it that many today have to do things their own way? Why profess to be Catholic, and then stand against the Church. Either be a Catholic, or leave. Its pretty simple…

I don’t mean to imply any insult, I just don’t understand why they don’t ‘toe the line’ so to speak…

Exactly. That’s what I picked up about those, apparently such as yourself, who do claim to be “orthodox” and in conformance with Church teaching. That’s what kind of melted my heart a bit.

See, I swing from one opposite to another. When I try something, I really try to go all the way to explore how far any given new idea can go if you take a concept, rule, or whatever, and apply it to extreme cases. This is also partly due to my engineering background, where we design things to work a certain way and then design them extra so they can withstand various types of abuse without falling apart. Can anyone remember when dropping a cell phone from four feet used to practically ensure it would quit working? Anyway, when I take these mental journeys down the roads that others’ ideas light up for me, I find interesting paradoxes – if not within one person, then among people who profess to be the same, or among different ideas that I cannot logically connect or accept on faith.

Here’s some of what I’ve learned by listening to “both sides” of the chasm, trying to understand first before trying to judge it or fix it.

An orthodox is not humorless. They just have some particular feelings attached to certain assertions that hurt them. When they are among themselves, they do just fine because none of them is likely to “slip up” and say something offensive, because they share a Common Understanding of What Constitutes Offensive. They also do well when doing something along with heterodox that is worldly enough that each person’s abilities, role, and contributions are easily discovered, controlled, and orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. For example, the free Thanksgiving dinner at our parish shows fabulous teamwork by factions who are capable at various things but don’t always cooperate. Common, easily understood goals and focus on mission keep our emotions from playing into it.

After starting this thread, I think I learned my greatest lesson by Jessica. She cut right through the negative aspects of the worst stereotypes of orthodox I could imagine, and reached out in friendship and obvious healing without judgment – in effect combining the best of the pharisee with the best of the Good Samaritans. It struck me as very Christlike, since Christ said to listen to the pharisees but don’t be like them, and since he also called sinners with mercy and understanding – and of course protection against the “bad side” of the Pharisees.

That will bless me and my family and all we touch from now on, because starting today I am changed.

Jessica, thank you. You will surely make a fine witness for Catholicism.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I don’t like this thread anymore and I’m going to give it a low rating. It was fun, and I think I learned a lot. Now I should probably move on and not look back…

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

AlanFromWichita:

I don’t like this thread anymore and I’m going to give it a low rating. It was fun, and I think I learned a lot. Now I should probably move on and not look back…

Alan

Sorry folks this probably was rude to just get all these questions going and then jumping ship.

I have thought about a lot of things in the last few days and I think I’ve learned a lot. I haven’t shared it too much because it’s hard to describe and I had a tough time concentrating.

If anyone wants to talk, go for it. Otherwise I’m not sure whether I want to continue this rather odd thread or if I should let it die and just go back to work designing the Unity thread, for which there are only preliminary public notes but no real definition yet. That or none of the above.

The thread has run its course for me, but I won’t rudely run away but at least lurk or check back. Vote for letting the thread die by not replying. Reply if you wish to prolong its life.

Alan

 

[DBT]

AlanFromWichita:

. . .just go back to work designing the Unity thread, for which there are only preliminary public notes but no real definition yet.

Maybe this can be the inspiration for your “Unity” thread. Today is the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul. On many occassions they failed to see things eye-to-eye but, because they both kept their focus squarely on Christ, they were able to find common ground despite their differences.

As always Alan, I wish the very best to you and yours . . .

Dave.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

DBT:

Maybe this can be the inspiration for your “Unity” thread. Today is the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul. On many occassions they failed to see things eye-to-eye but, because they both kept their focus squarely on Christ, they were able to find common ground despite their differences.

As always Alan, I wish the very best to you and yours . . .

Dave.

Thanks for the kind words.

Alan