Orthodox View Catolics

[Isa_Almisry]

Here we go again. As if the Orthodox have not done just as much to be ashamed of.

Perhaps you can distinguish for us the “union of Brest-Lvov” (`1596), the “Union of Uzhhorod” (1646) and the “Union of Transylvania” (1701) from the “Union of Lvov” 1946?

Btw. I think Volodymyr signaled his disapproval of the last “Union,” as do I. But then again, I (I can’t speak for Volodymiy) don’t approve of the circumstances surrounding the other “unions.”

We are aware that some would rather stay with Rome. The formation of the “Priestly Society of St. Josaphat” proves that.

But that doesn’t change the issue of the formation of these Churches. The father of my old priest Fr. Semkoff of blessed memory, was a member of the “Union” in what was then Austro-Hungary, now Slovkia. He said that when he went to get his credentials to leave for America his BISHOP told him not to go to the “Katolik” bishop in America, but the Orthodox. “We have to be ‘Katolik’ here,” he said “there you don’t.” Fr. Semkoff, was disobedient, however, and went to the “proper” bishop, who refused to receive him, as he was married (and, unlike St. Fr. Alexis Toth, his wife was alive and living with him). He then followed his bishops advice, and ended up founding five churches of the same flock as St. Alexis. The fifth, my old parish, shared a history with St. Mary’s which went on to be part of Annuciation parish. of Fr. Thomas Loyla fame.
byzantinecatholic.com/music.htm

 

[Aramis]

Perhaps you can distinguish for us the “union of Brest-Lvov” (`1596), the “Union of Uzhhorod” (1646) and the “Union of Transylvania” (1701) from the “Union of Lvov” 1946?
But that doesn’t change the issue of the formation of these Churches. The father of my old priest Fr. Semkoff of blessed memory, was a member of the “Union” in what was then Austro-Hungary, now Slovkia. He said that when he went to get his credentials to leave for America his BISHOP told him not to go to the “Katolik” bishop in America, but the Orthodox. “We have to be ‘Katolik’ here,” he said “there you don’t.” Fr. Semkoff, was disobedient, however, and went to the “proper” bishop, who refused to receive him, as he was married (and, unlike St. Fr. Alexis Toth, his wife was alive and living with him). He then followed his bishops advice, and ended up founding five churches of the same flock as St. Alexis. The fifth, my old parish, shared a history with St. Mary’s which went on to be part of Annuciation parish. of Fr. Thomas Loyla fame.
byzantinecatholic.com/music.htm

That was a problem with the intolerance of the American bishops in the 1880’s. That stricture was imposed by Rome at the request of the nascent USCCB… as a blatant attempt to prevent the EC’s from remaining eastern…

It failed. Since VII, that prohibition has been first quietly ignored, and eventually lifted.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Sts. Peter and Andrew, brothers and Apostles, pray for us!

:byzsoc:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here we go again. As if the Orthodox have not done just as much to be ashamed of.

All the same, can’t we get away from the mud-slinging ? Surely it’s worse to sling, rather than be slung at ? The only way to stop it, is for someone to break the vicious circle by refusing to continue the game: why can’t that be us ?​

 

[wynd]

Surely it’s worse to sling, rather than be slung at?

“Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

All the same, can’t we get away from the mud-slinging ? Surely it’s worse to sling, rather than be slung at ? The only way to stop it, is for someone to break the vicious circle by refusing to continue the game: why can’t that be us ?​

This is a good ideal but unfortunately it does not work. The same old things are continually brought up by certain individuals and to not respond to them is to let them have the argument.

Anyways, I find it strange that my post is singled out for a comment on “mud slinging” where all I did was point out a fact that the other side has done things it should not be proud of where others continually dig up the past.

 

[marlo]

It does not matter what type of sign of the cross one use, the problem is the Orthodox make it a matter of doctrinal issue rather than disciplinary issue. in Russia, many was murdered by preserving their own sign of the cross, but later, the russian orthodox accepted it

I understand that the clergy in the West used to use the same posture, but the pope of Rome forbad it, arrogating it to himself alone to use for his “Apostolic Blessing.”

Btw, you did know that according to documents of your church, e.g. CE, you in the West used to cross yourselves like us, until you changed after the 13th century, no?

 

[Volodymyr]

The Orthodox make it a matter of doctrinal issue rather than disciplinary issue. in Russia,- murdered by preserving their own sign of the cross,

The Inquisition of Spain murdered Jews who refused to eat pork. The Tsarist state under Aleksei and Nikon persecuted old believers like famous Boyarina Morozova. This was medieval times - people took all things very seriously. Honestly, no one in Russia or Ukraina now cares if Old Believer makes only two fingered cross. No one in Spain cares of Jews do not eat pork.

 

[Ignatius]

ORTHODOX AT CATHOLIC ANSWERS SAJT

Some have asked why are Orthodox here at this sait - at least my view of Catolics is expressed below (please read to end)
**I think his letter is attitude of most Orthodox people who visit this sait: **

"Using this occasion in order to reveal to you, as editor of this Journal, my own deep sorrow occasioned by articles and talks at this “Consultation” in summer by Archbishop Germogen. Why did he have to gather all the most fithy, most negative about Catolic Church? Is there nothing in her which is luminous and positive, are there not miracles and Saints? Certainly Catolic church is not only Pope and Cardinals, only Vatican, to whose politic we also feel negative? Does not Catolic church consist of millions of simple peope with pure and devote hearts? Why poison them with articles of Germogen creating evil and heavily sinful barriers between Christians. Why, why, why such a heavy sin - only to the joy of the enemies of the Church??

Below Icon of this Holy Saint Luka who will help us (EOS and RCS as you say) by his prayers to understand each other

http://www.sedmitza.ru/htdocs/database/imagebase/12119.jpg

Thank you brother.
May God grant you many Happy, holy and blessed years.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[Diak]

Honestly, no one in Russia or Ukraina now cares if Old Believer makes only two fingered cross. No one in Spain cares of Jews do not eat pork.

It is still difficult for non-Moscow Patriarchate churches, whether Greek Catholic or Old Rite/Old Believer to get permits to form or build churches. This is a demonstrable fact. There is indeed still pressure from the government for these non-MP communities- I know this to be a fact because I have assisted several of our communities there who are trying to form missions to help Ukrainian Greek Catholics. Apparently some do still care about the differences.
FDRLB

 

[Nickkname]

Why can’t we all just leave the past to God’s Mercy, live the present in God’s Love, and rely on God’s Providence for the future? Is this so hard for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

 

[Nicholas82]

Why can’t we all just leave the past to God’s Mercy, live the present in God’s Love, and rely on God’s Providence for the future? Is this so hard for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

I honestly agree, but there’s just some serious theological and issues of ecclesiology to be ironed out between two sides totally convinced of their own positions. That said, at the same time my whole family is Roman Catholic and I certainly don’t begrudge them that or worry terribly over their salvation just over that.

 

[Mickey]

there’s just some serious theological and issues of ecclesiology to be ironed out between two sides

Yes. There can be no compromise.

 

[Aramis]

Why can’t we all just leave the past to God’s Mercy, live the present in God’s Love, and rely on God’s Providence for the future? Is this so hard for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

The problem is primarily ecclesiology: the understanding of the Bishops and their interrelationships as bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs.

One side or the other will have to compromise on ecclesiology.

 

[Volodymyr]

It is still difficult for non-Moscow Patriarchate churches, whether Greek Catholic or Old Rite/Old Believer to get permits to form or build churches. This is a demonstrable fact. There is indeed still pressure from the government for these non-MP communities-

Certainly you are not speaking of Ukraina - where it easier to build GrekoCatolic church in Kharkiv, Kyiv and certain L’viv than to build any kind Ukrainian Orthodox church, particularly canonical churches. As GrekoCatolic cafedral is being finished in Kyiv, only now has permission been granted for Ukrainian Orthodox Cafedral - old one was given by government to church of so-called Patriarch Filaret. In L’viv it is impossible for Ukrainian Orthodox church to get building permit at all - after many many years - only one remaining church.

Are you speaking of Rossia?? There are many Old Believer churches being built there, in Estonia, Lithuania, Romania - all over. As for GrekoCatolics in Russia I do not know - this is not a traditional religion in Rossia. There is most easy for perrmits for Orthodox, Jews, Moslems, Budhist and Roman Catolics who are traditional religions of some groups in Rossia.

 

[Diak]

Certainly you are not speaking of Ukraina - where it easier to build GrekoCatolic church in Kharkiv, Kyiv and certain L’viv than to build any kind Ukrainian Orthodox church, particularly canonical churches. As GrekoCatolic cafedral is being finished in Kyiv, only now has permission been granted for Ukrainian Orthodox Cafedral - old one was given by government to church of so-called Patriarch Filaret. In L’viv it is impossible for Ukrainian Orthodox church to get building permit at all - after many many years - only one remaining church.

Are you speaking of Rossia?? There are many Old Believer churches being built there, in Estonia, Lithuania, Romania - all over. As for GrekoCatolics in Russia I do not know - this is not a traditional religion in Rossia. There is most easy for perrmits for Orthodox, Jews, Moslems, Budhist and Roman Catolics who are traditional religions of some groups in Rossia.

Certainly I DO speak of Ukraina. In Donetsk Oblast the local government often tries to block our Greko-Katolik people from registering and buying property. I know because my friend and priest has to have Liturgy and services in a storage building (we would call it a “barn” out here) because he can not get a permit or registration for his congregation from the local council.

What you say about L’viv is not true - there are several Ukrainian Orthodox churches with the MP operating (definitely more than one - Metropolitan Vladimir has several parishes there).

In Russia there are many examples of difficulties as well - and not only towards Greek Catholics. I was not speaking of the Baltics or Romania - this situation is very different from Russia.

It should not matter if one is “traditional religion”, whatever that means, as in the US or Canada ANY religion can build a church or organize freely.

Regarding the Old Believers, yes, there still is some negative feelings and treatment from the MP in some places. Ask any of the Bila Krinistsa clergy - they will give specifics. Even though they are Russian Old Believers, they choose to keep their headquarters in Ukraine and Romania. That is for a reason.
FDRLB