Orthodoxy and Reformation

[Nine_Two]

While I’m thinking of it, the Doukhobors are a group which broke away from the Orthodox Church on the basis of doctrine.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I’ve always found it rather ironic that both the Catholic and the Orthodox world had to fight off trenchant Gnostic sects almost contemporaneously in history. Gnosticism, despising this material world, and secret knowledge were always powerful temptations, and both the Catholics and Orthodox had to combat them.

In the West, it was the Cathar (Albigensian) heresy in the Languedoc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

In the East, it was the Bogomils. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils

Go figure.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’ve always found it rather ironic that both the Catholic and the Orthodox world had to fight off trenchant Gnostic sects almost contemporaneously in history. Gnosticism, despising this material world, and secret knowledge were always powerful temptations, and both the Catholics and Orthodox had to combat them.

In the West, it was the Cathar (Albigensian) heresy in the Languedoc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

In the East, it was the Bogomils. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils

Go figure.

Gnosticism originated before the schism, and has reared its ugly head several times throughout history.

One of the nice things that keeps it from spreading too far is that procreation is seen as one of the worst sins possible in almost all gnostic sects (the only two existant sects, which I am aware of, that currently exist do not have this prohibition, probably why they managed to survive). This does not include “neo-gnostic” sects, which are more of a Nag-Hammadi fetish than a religious movement.

 

[KyivAndrew]

This does not include “neo-gnostic” sects, which are more of a Nag-Hammadi fetish than a religious movement.

Fetish and not religion , how true! Funny thing is I think even some modern day “hip” Western scholars like Elaine Pagels try to make the Nag-Hammadi thing tres-cool. More a case of some sort of weird wishful thinking.

 

[Nine_Two]

Popular media don’t help the issue by portraying them as “lost gospels” the religious authorities don’t want you to know about… they weren’t lost, they just weren’t reproduced.

 

[Ghosty]

One might argue that Islam is the Orthodox version of the Reformation.

I’m impressed that an Eastern Orthodox person said this; I was thinking of saying it, but I didn’t want to be misunderstood or cause a fight.

You are indeed correct that St. John of Damascus, and many other great Saints and Fathers, viewed Islam in precisely the way you’ve mentioned. While it’s not identical in nature to the Reformation, in general the fundamental similarities are there. Islam is very much like a “clearing house” of Eastern heresies, just as the Reformation was for the West.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m impressed that an Eastern Orthodox person said this; I was thinking of saying it, but I didn’t want to be misunderstood or cause a fight.

You are indeed correct that St. John of Damascus, and many other great Saints and Fathers, viewed Islam in precisely the way you’ve mentioned. While it’s not identical in nature to the Reformation, in general the fundamental similarities are there. Islam is very much like a “clearing house” of Eastern heresies, just as the Reformation was for the West.

Peace and God bless!

Although I am rather more favorable to the majority of protestants than I am to Islam. My experience with protestantism is that the Holy Spirit still moves within them, even if they lack the fullness of Christ. Visiting the Blue Mosque this spring, it felt so devoid of anything spiritually significant. It was just a big building.

 

[JRKH]

It appears at this point that the OP has been answered.

1. The split between the East and the West produced no “Cascade” of schisms within either branch of the Church in the 500 or so years between said split and the Protestant reformation.
2. What Problems occuring in the East have been primarily of “ethnic” or “national” nature.
3. Only in the Protestant reformation can be found the “Cascade” of Schisms, first from the Church and then from each other, that I believe the OP was understand.

Peace
James

 

[Nine_Two]

1. What Problems occuring in the East have been primarily of “ethnic” or “national” nature.

I don’t agree that this has been a conclusion of this thread. Old Believers and Old Calendarists, two of the major breaks mentioned, were certainly not over national lines. The latter of those crosses national lines quite a bit, the former doesn’t but only because it arose out of the reforms of a Local Church.

 

[SPH1]

That tells you how serious the Orthodox take changes in praxis when a schism occurred over how to hold your fingers when crossing yourself and whether to sing the alleluia two or three times!

I wouldn’t consider this rigid approach as desirable, right or approved of by God.

But it is the mindset that will keep schism ongoing, preventing any healing.

I wonder if the Orthodox are so rigid now because of turbulence of the earlier centuries, falling into various heresies?

 

[Nine_Two]

I wouldn’t consider this rigid approach as desirable, right or approved of by God.

But it is the mindset that will keep schism ongoing, preventing any healing.

I wonder if the Orthodox are so rigid now because of turbulence of the earlier centuries, falling into various heresies?

You’ll not that most of the church has gone through with these non-docternal reforms and changes. We have Churches using both calendars in full communion with each other with no problems. People are stubborn.

I’m not going to respond to your second and third paragraphs, other than to say “We could say the same things of you.”

This is not a productive line of discussion, and it is rising those lines of discussion that is largely to blame for the schism.

 

[dzheremi]

I have never heard from any person of authority within the Church this talk that the Orthodox are “heretical”. Even going back to a time when the schism was much more fresh than it is now, you’d have treatises like “Contra Errores Graecorum” - “Against Greek ERRORS”, not heresies! Certainly the Orthodox maintain that we who are in union with Rome are likewise in error…some say even worse…it’s best not to feed this spirit on either side with uncharitable baiting.

 

[Hesychios]

One might argue that Islam is the Orthodox version of the Reformation.

That dog won’t hunt.

Islam is no more a Christian heresy than Christianity is a Buddhist heresy.

The religion of Islam was founded by a person living outside of organized religion, in tribal Arabia. In that region were tribes of Jews and remnant Gnostics and heretics that were beyond the reach of the law. The bulk of Arabia was very pagan. Religious ideas floated around there like New Age thinking, fortune-telling and horoscope reading floats around America today. Traveling Arabs could witness eastern Christianity in it’s own context, and some would embrace it, but the religion in question was created by a pagan having visions alone in a cave.

While most of the significant reformers of sixteenth century western Europe were trained as Roman Catholic priests,ordained by Roman Catholic bishops and already deeply rooted in Roman Catholic thought, the same cannot be said of the earliest Muslims, who had no formal training in Christianity (eastern or western) whatsoever.

There is no comparison, and you are quite mistaken.

 

[Mickey]

While most of the significant reformers of sixteenth century western Europe were trained as Roman Catholic priests,ordained by Roman Catholic bishops and already deeply rooted in Roman Catholic thought, the same cannot be said of the earliest Muslims, who had no formal training in Christianity (eastern or western) whatsoever.

There is no comparison, and you are quite mistaken.