Our Relationship with Mary

[msaluta]

Hello!

I’m a new Catholic, but came to know Christ in the Protestant world.

After much seeking, knocking, and finding, I found my way to the Catholic Church.

I’m embracing all aspects of the faith, with the exception of the Rosary, chaplets to saints, and praying to saints in general.

I do in fact pray the rosary daily, and have found great value in it, but I’m really unsure how I’m supposed to pray to Mary, venerate Mary, and consider her my Mother, without falling into worship. I really like the doctrine that she is our Mother (“son, behold your Mother”), but I’m unsure how to mentally and spiritually consider Mary my Mother, to venerate her, to pray to her for intercession, as I said without the feeling like I’m getting too close to worship. I’ve also heard it said that Mary can provide comfort, and while it is comforting to know that our Mother prays on our behalf, I’m uncertain how she can supernaturally provide us anything on our temporal plane, since I was under the impression that God alone is capable of doing that.

I guess I’m completely uncertain how to frame my relationship with Mary, since all of my previous relational experience is with God.

Any books or resources are also welcome!

 

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

Perhaps look into the book True Devotion to Mary by St Louis de Montfort and Hail Holy Queen by Dr Scott Hahn. Between these two, you will learn everything you need to go to overcome your discomfort related to Mary and the Saints. And don’t feel bad about it. It is hard to shake protestant trappings when first becoming Catholic. I’ve been there personally and I can say that it will get better with time. I’m experiencing the same thing again becoming a Byzantine Catholic and having to let go of my Roman mindset/world view.

Disclaimer on True Devotion to Mary. Read the footnotes. He uses a lot of language about Mary, calling her divine and that we worship her, but the footnotes illustrate that these are not claiming what we would understand them today at face value. I know that me telling you to try reading two different books is not the most immediately practical advice you could get, but these books would help you tremendously.

 

[SlavaIsusuChristu]

As an aside, there’s nothing in Catholicism that says you absolutely must venerate Mary or the Saints. You can live your entire life as a Catholic without praying for intercession from these sources once. My argument in defense of Mary and the Saints is that without them, it’s comparable to going into battle with the dark forces arrayed against us wielding a splintered shield and a blunt sword. You can still fight this way, but you put yourself at a disadvantage.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Did you have a loving relationship with your own mom?
Presuming you did, then you loved her without worshipping her, right?
You relate to Mother Mary the same way.

Did you ever ask your own mom to help you with something, like homework, or talk to Dad for you, or show you how to do something, or make you feel less sad or afraid?
You ask Mother Mary the same way.

Did you ever ask your mom to give you a treat she bought at the store?
She didn’t make the cake or cookies or candy, but she had a stockpile of them and might give you one if she thought it was okay (like not too near dinner or not when you were supposed to be doing a chore first).
You ask Mother Mary to give you graces the same way. God is the baker. He makes the graces. He gives them to her to hand out to his children who ask.

BTW I don’t recommend you read St Louis de Montfort if you’re just getting started with Mary.
You could read Fr Gaitley’s “30 Days to Morning Glory” instead. It’s a little easier to start with.

 

[Vico]

As an aside, there’s nothing in Catholicism that says you absolutely must venerate Mary or the Saints. You can live your entire life as a Catholic without praying for intercession from these sources once. My argument in defense of Mary and the Saints is that without them, it’s comparable to going into battle with the dark forces arrayed against us wielding a splintered shield and a blunt sword. You can still fight this way, but you put yourself at a disadvantage.

Intercession.

Kontakion for March 25 Annunciation of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary

O Theotokos, valiant defender, you servants offer you hymns of victory in thanksgiving, for you have delivered us. But since you have invincible power, free us from all peril, that we many exclaim to you: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride.

From the Akathist of the Dormiti on, Ikos 12:

Praising your all-venerable Dormition, we sing hymns to your going up to the heavenly realm, O Queen and Mother of God. Sanctify, glorify, and save all who lovingly sing to you:

From the Office of Consolation to the Most Holy Theotokos , Ode 6, Irmos:

I believe, O Virgin, that through your intercession you save and protect my life, dispelling many temptations and casting out the cunning snares of the devil. Now I implore you without ceasing: Deliver me from my corrupting passions.

 

[msaluta]

So that makes sense, and it sounds good, but Mary not sharing in the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I’m uncertain theologically how divine providence can be exchanged through non-divine persons, to myself. I understand praying to her for intercession, much like I’d ask anyone else to keep me in their prayers. I will check out the book you referenced thanks.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I am not sure why the theological aspect is so important here, but I respect that for some reason it is to you. Is there a particular non-Catholic tradition you’re coming from? A fellow convert from that tradition might be best suited to answer you as they may have pondered the same.

I’m a cradle, so I grew up with Mary and never had a theological concern. My father was a convert from Baptist/ Methodist but he never concerned himself with the theological aspects and just prayed his rosary a lot. So I am not the best person to help you.

 

[msaluta]

Right so looking at that, I don’t understand.

“Invincible power” to me is on par with omnipotence.

“and save all who lovingly sing to you” suggests to me that Mary herself is capable of salvation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Invincible power” to me is on par with omnipotence.

No, Mary would not like you to say that. She does all things through God and with God, doing only God’s will. She has no power in and of herself.

“and save all who lovingly sing to you” suggests to me that Mary herself is capable of salvation.

Jesus is our intercessor with God the Father.
Mary is our intercessor with Jesus (Scripturally shown by the Wedding at Cana).
As Cajun said, Mary can only recommend us to her Son, and ask him to have mercy on us.

Mary also can fight off the devil. God gives her the ability to do so. She helps us battle temptation.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[msaluta]

This is my understanding as well.

I become confused when I see writings that indicate she herself contains power, ability, or attributes that are reserved for God.

 

[Bithynian]

I don’t understand.

I think it’s important to frame the literary context of Marian devotion appropriately: most (if not all) liturgical and devotional treatments of Mary throughout the Catholic Church (as well as in Eastern Christian Churches) tend to towards dense poetics. That is, they prize rich, ornamental language that emphasises Mary’s praiseworthiness. I think our modern ears tend to hear an element of exaggeration, but ancient hymnologists valued this effect as a positive aesthetic element. It would have been very boring, likewise, for Shakespeare to say to his beloved ‘actually, I can’t compare you to a summer’s day because you’re a person while the other is a weather event affected by the earth’s rotation around the sun’.

It’s important to keep this in mind because one will come across all manner of theological problems if you apply an overly-literal, systematic reading of Mariological devotions by trying to square it with other theological disciplines. For example, Mary is sometimes addressed as the Ark of the Covenant or Salvation in devotions (e.g. the Litany of Loreto). But sometimes the Church, too, is described as the Ark of Salvation, and this title is sometimes applied to Jesus (to whom Noah’s ark was a type). The problem arises if you try to determine who is what ark, whose ark possesses what attributes and such.

 

[msaluta]

Thanks for that.

It is very helpful taking the hymnological context into account.

 

[Vico]

Right so looking at that, I don’t understand.

“Invincible power” to me is on par with omnipotence.

“and save all who lovingly sing to you” suggests to me that Mary herself is capable of salvation.

Etym. Latin in , not + vincibilis , easily overcome: invincibilis .

Salvation requires individual cooperation with grace given by the Holy Trinity.

 

[Lucy_1]

Right so looking at that, I don’t understand.

“Invincible power” to me is on par with omnipotence.

“and save all who lovingly sing to you” suggests to me that Mary herself is capable of salvation.

Hi, fellow protestant convert here. Often language used to describe Mary and our relationship to her is poetic rather than theological. Prayers like the memorare or Hail Holy Queen use romantic language. Like when you hear a song on the radio that says “you’re my everything” well, obv. that’s not explicitly accurate, it’s describing a feeling.

Edit: Yes, what @Bithynian said better than I could

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Often language used to describe Mary and our relationship to her is poetic rather than theological. Prayers like the memorare or Hail Holy Queen use romantic language.

Yeah, and this is the type of thing most cradles who grew up with Marian devotion just take for granted. I might say the Litany of Loreto or the Hail Holy Queen just quickly from memory, I might stop and meditate a bit upon the words, but I don’t sit there theologically analyzing each phrase thinking “Is this Mary worship?” or “is this somehow making Mary equal to God?” etc because we’re already comfortable with Mary’s place in God’s landscape; namely, the quote from Fr Calloway already posted above.

We already know and accept that she’s not equal to God and she doesn’t even want to be equal to God. She just wants to lead us to God. So we don’t worry when we pray.

 

[Dlee]

@(name removed by moderator) You always have the neatest graphics - a picture says 1,000 words! Thanks for all you share.

 

[twf]

If you find yourself in a heretical cult that offers sacrifices on an altar to Our Lady, you’ve crossed the line into worship. Catholic worship involves sacrifice… specifically the Eucharistic sacrifice (and all that we unite to that one perfect offering).
We can and should praise Our Lady. She is our Mother and she is the greatest and most excellent of all God’s creations. She deserves more praise than a mere mortal could ever hope to offer. But that’s not worship. That’s praise. They are not equivalent.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I can’t add much to what’s already been said other than I came about the same path as you. I have to remind myself frequently that it’s primarily an American thing of the last few decades that we’re hung up on the precision of language and words, and most of our references are outside of that standard; in fact, they assumed a great deal of what we might term “liberal arts education” or at least, intelligent interpretation that afforded them the ability to use flowery language of metaphors and similes.

As someone who takes Divine Providence seriously, it is because we all, living here and living there (deceased - but we really need a better term if we’re going to be so picky elsewhere - thus, “Church Militant” {Earth-bound}, “Church Penitent” {Purgatory}, and “Church Triumphant” {across the finish line} work well, and that plays a role in how we understand “Communion of Saints” — “Church All-of-the-Above”!) we all have a dose of that Providence within us, granted by God’s love and the sacraments. Those in heaven have stronger, higher doses! It is the Providence of God that allows Mary and the Saints to be able to hear us and act on our requests in cooperation with / through the power of the Godhead.

I finally (after years of thick-headedness) finally feel like all these Saints and Mama Mary are just like my dear friends and family. I talk to them, tell them what I need, and I do the same with my Lord.

 

[otjm]

Brant Pitre, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary; Unveiling the Mother of the Messiah is an excellent book (as well as just about anything else by him).

She cannot provide anything which God does not allow her to provide. She is not some sort of “4th person of the Trinity” going around doing things on her own.

You don’t say if you are married; if you are, how do you react and relate to your mother-in-law? Presumably with some deference and respect. Or if not married, how do you relate and react to the mother of your best friends?

Your question and concern is excellent; contemplate the questions above and get the book! It is available on Amazon; also on his website (for about $5 more - but it is a signed copy - and most professors need all the support they can get!).

 

[angelo]

I dont know if this could help but ill share it anyway. Concerning on how we venerate the holy mother, I venerate her by seeing her as how I see my mother but with greater love and devotion and I always ask her to bring me closer to Christ. To the saints, I see them as my older brothers and sisters where I can ask for prayers and help to be closer to God and to pray for me for strength to the Holy Father. Try to pray to the Holy Spirit, I know that the Spirit of God will guide you as to how to do things and to what degree. May God bless you always