Our Value Before Christ

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I encounter people who are thick-skinned, honest, humble, content, accepting, realistic, confident and mature. There are others who utterly lack these qualities. Why does God love them both? I wrote earlier. Some particular sins are very ugly - judgment, self-centeredness, gossip, pretension, greed, stinginess, envy, bullying, resentment, thinking too highly of yourself, projecting your insecurities on other people, doubt, anger, self-righteousness, complaining. I can see why God would forgive people with what I call “carnal” sins - sexuality, materialism, gluttony, laziness. I cannot imagine someone going to hell for these “carnal” sins.
 
It is difficult to believe Catholicism is the only path to Heaven. God loves us tremendously. Why can’t we all be virtuous?
 
CRATUS said:
It is difficult to believe Catholicism is the only path to Heaven. God loves us tremendously. Why can’t we all be virtuous?
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BEcause in Man, there is a spiritual vacuum, it is in him by nature, and the Vacuum is Original Sin. It is the lack of GOd in us which IS the void. SO it gets filled selfish desires and ambitions. As a result, there is no NATURAL good that can save us, because everything we WANT by nature is for selfish purposes, even virtue. We want to be good for a reward. THat is enough to get started, but not enough to keep going. So unless God fills the void in our hearts, makes us his Children, and gives us the internal help we need to be virtuous for HIS sake and out of pure Love, we cannot be saved.

That is where the Church comes in. SHE ALONE provides us the baptism we need, the sacraments, and the truth that is free from personal fantasies and delusions. Anyone can make up their own path to salvation, but since it originates in minds that are subject to sin and darkness, it will be tainted by imperfection and the inability to save us from ourselves.

Only the Catholic Faith has its origins in he who is GOD, Jesus Christ, and without conversion to that religion, we will always be self-deceived and consequently, we will always fall and never be saved in the end.
 
CRATUS said:
I encounter people who are thick-skinned, honest, humble, content, accepting, realistic, confident and mature. There are others who utterly lack these qualities. Why does God love them both? I wrote earlier. Some particular sins are very ugly - judgment, self-centeredness, gossip, pretension, greed, stinginess, envy, bullying, resentment, thinking too highly of yourself, projecting your insecurities on other people, doubt, anger, self-righteousness, complaining. I can see why God would forgive people with what I call “carnal” sins - sexuality, materialism, gluttony, laziness. I cannot imagine someone going to hell for these “carnal” sins.
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God loves everyone because we are His creatures. He made each and every one of us to spend eternity with Him. Whatever our sins, He offers us the grace to repent and be forgiven, and then be made better so that we might, by His help, overcome our besetting sins.

Whatever category of sins you think is the worst, remember that EVEN THOSE can be forgiven. Be careful not to focus on a sin or set of sins as “the worst,” especially if those sins happen to be ones to which you are not tempted but “those other people” are.

Usagi
 
CRATUS said:
I encounter people who are thick-skinned, honest, humble, content, accepting, realistic, confident and mature. There are others who utterly lack these qualities. Why does God love them both? I wrote earlier. Some particular sins are very ugly - judgment, self-centeredness, gossip, pretension, greed, stinginess, envy, bullying, resentment, thinking too highly of yourself, projecting your insecurities on other people, doubt, anger, self-righteousness, complaining. I can see why God would forgive people with what I call “carnal” sins - sexuality, materialism, gluttony, laziness. I cannot imagine someone going to hell for these “carnal” sins.
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St Paul says:
“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes* nor sodomites
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians. 6: 9-10).

And again,
" Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
occasions of envy,* drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5: 19-21).
 
Pope_St_Leo said:
That is where the Church comes in. **SHE ALONE provides us the baptism we need, **the sacraments, and the truth that is free from personal fantasies and delusions. Anyone can make up their own path to salvation, but since it originates in minds that are subject to sin and darkness, it will be tainted by imperfection and the inability to save us from ourselves.

Only the Catholic Faith has its origins in he who is GOD, Jesus Christ, and without conversion to that religion, we will always be self-deceived and consequently, we will always fall and never be saved in the end.
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My baptism was not of the Catholic Church but Lutheran, as many of you know. Anyone who is baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit has experienced the means of grace thru baptism.

I have to take issue with the last sentence which I bolded - without conversion to the Catholic Faith I am destined to “fall and never be saved in the end?” Not true and not what your Catechism says as well.

God bless!

Rita
 
Pope_St_Leo said:
BEcause in Man, there is a spiritual vacuum, it is in him by nature, and the Vacuum is Original Sin. It is the lack of GOd in us which IS the void. SO it gets filled selfish desires and ambitions. As a result, there is no NATURAL good that can save us, because everything we WANT by nature is for selfish purposes, even virtue. We want to be good for a reward. THat is enough to get started, but not enough to keep going. So unless God fills the void in our hearts, makes us his Children, and gives us the internal help we need to be virtuous for HIS sake and out of pure Love, we cannot be saved.

That is where the Church comes in. SHE ALONE provides us the baptism we need, the sacraments, and the truth that is free from personal fantasies and delusions. Anyone can make up their own path to salvation, but since it originates in minds that are subject to sin and darkness, it will be tainted by imperfection and the inability to save us from ourselves.

Only the Catholic Faith has its origins in he who is GOD, Jesus Christ, and without conversion to that religion, we will always be self-deceived and consequently, we will always fall and never be saved in the end.
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Isn’t love related to selfishness?
 
I think this verse speaks volumes…

Genesis 6:6 (KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Mankind is also said to be his greatest love, even above the angels, but nowhere did he ever say he regretted creating the angels, even though one of them committed the worst possible sin of all time, stole 1/3 of his angels away from him, corrupted mankind thru his influence…all this, yet he regrets creating man?
 
mikekle said:
I think this verse speaks volumes…

Genesis 6:6 (KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Mankind is also said to be his greatest love, even above the angels, but nowhere did he ever say he regretted creating the angels, even though one of them committed the worst possible sin of all time, stole 1/3 of his angels away from him, corrupted mankind thru his influence…all this, yet he regrets creating man?
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Very little is written about the fallen angels. You have no idea if God regretted creating angels nor if the angels also
And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually
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. committed the same wickedness as man did. You are saying that the fallen angels were worst than man but I don’t know how you could come to that conclusion?
 
adrift said:
Very little is written about the fallen angels. You have no idea if God regretted creating angels nor if the angels also . committed the same wickedness as man did. You are saying that the fallen angels were worst than man but I don’t know how you could come to that conclusion?
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Thats true, we dont know if God regretted making the fallen angels, bible doesnt say…BUT, he does say he regretted making man, so we do know that.

Satan himself, attempted a sin, that NO human could ever possibly even consider, Satan tried to literally overthrow Heaven, Gods throne…Humans simply could never do this, the only way we could ever get close to the throne of God is if we end up in heaven when we die, its doubtful a human soul would desire such an action if they went to heaven, if they go to hell, they would not be able to leave, so no way they could attempt to overthrow heaven.

Plus, I find it very doubtful ANY human, that has ever existed, would have the ability to influence an angel to act in a specific way.
 
Bahman said:
That is not correct. Perhaps you have never fall in love to see how much love is selfish!
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there are three stages of love
  1. Eros love the beginning but not quite to love yes. It is based on the physical
    2 Philos love another step because here the physical has become friends
  2. Agape - unconditional love this is the truest love no selfishness here otherwise it is not love
    Anyone who claims that they have fallen in love and it is selfish actually has fallen in lust. it is not love.
    This is what love is and there is no selfishness to it.
    John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life.
Corinthians 12:4-8 “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
 
adrift said:
there are three stages of love
  1. Eros love the beginning but not quite to love yes. It is based on the physical
    2 Philos love another step because here the physical has become friends
  2. Agape - unconditional love this is the truest love no selfishness here otherwise it is not love
    Anyone who claims that they have fallen in love and it is selfish actually has fallen in lust. it is not love.
    This is what love is and there is no selfishness to it.
    John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life.
Corinthians 12:4-8 “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
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We are attached to many concepts in life. The attachment relies on the fact that we are selfish. We simply want.
 
mikekle said:
Thats true, we dont know if God regretted making the fallen angels, bible doesnt say…BUT, he does say he regretted making man, so we do know that.

Satan himself, attempted a sin, that NO human could ever possibly even consider, Satan tried to literally overthrow Heaven, Gods throne…Humans simply could never do this, the only way we could ever get close to the throne of God is if we end up in heaven when we die, its doubtful a human soul would desire such an action if they went to heaven, if they go to hell, they would not be able to leave, so no way they could attempt to overthrow heaven.
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Isaiah 14:12-15

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
Genesis 3:5,6
No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad."
The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Genesis 11:4
Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky, and so make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered all over the earth.”

I believe that man too tries to overthrow God.
Plus, I find it very doubtful ANY human, that has ever existed, would have the ability to influence an angel to act in a specific way.
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:confused: I am totally missing your point here:o
 
adrift said:
I believe that man too tries to overthrow God.

:confused: I am totally missing your point here:o
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Well, you are right, man does try to overthrow God, in the sense, many of them want to sort of be their own ‘gods’, in that they want to decide what is a sin and what is not, but Satan took it a step further, he actually wanted to overthrow Heaven itself, he wanted to be worshiped as God, most sinners do not desire to be worshiped as a god imo, plus, I doubt many sinners desire to overthrow heaven either.

Regarding what I meant by that last statement…Satan had the ability to convince 1/3 of Gods angels that they should follow him and turn their back on God, I dont know of ANY human that could successfully convince a SINGLE angel to turn their back on God.
 
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