Outside the Universe

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Faith1960

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I was reading up on just where heaven could be and the priest said that there is no space outside our universe. Is he correct?
 
It depends on what you mean by “space”.

If you’re talking about the space-time boundaries of this universe, then he’s correct.

But if you’re talking about the “space” occupied by God and the spiritual word, then we don’t know. I would say probably not, since God is infinite.
 
It depends on what you mean by “space”. If you’re talking about the space of this universe, then obviously he’s correct.

But if you’re talking about the supernatural “space” occupied by God and the spiritual world, then we just don’t know.
 
Heaven is not a place, it is a state of being. (At least for now) It does not occupy space in the way you’re describing, so it isn’t technically -anywhere-.

As for the question of space outside of our universe, we don’t know if there is any. Certain scientist think there could be, while others think that this Universe is all that physically exists.

This is inconsequential to the question of Heaven, however, because Heaven is the state of being in the presence of God. God is not physical (well, God the father isn’t) and Heaven isn’t physical (until after the second coming) Since it isn’t physical, it doesn’t occupy space as we understand it.
 
Faith1960 said:
I was reading up on just where heaven could be and the priest said that there is no space outside our universe. Is he correct?
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Heaven is a state of the soul not a place. Well at-least till the second coming.

A new heaven and a new earth will be brought about after Christ comes than heaven will be a physical place. For now heaven is a state of departed souls not a place.

I don’t think there is any space outside of our universe.
 
catholictiger said:
I don’t think there is any space outside of our universe.
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But don’t we, as Catholics, maintain that God is outside of time and space? I do not believe there is a physical ‘place’ outside of our universe, but there is something outside of the universe, and I believe that to be God.
 
There is nothing, literally “No-thing” outside of the universe because the universe is everything that exists, including all time and space. The universe is continually expanding into nothingness. And besides that, there is no actual boundary to the universe so heaven does not exist in some place or “space” just outside of the universe. Heaven is not a physical place but is rather a state of being, just like hell is a state of being. if you are in heaven, your soul does not travel to some place, but rather it is simply in a state of being in communion with God. Conversely, if one is damned to hell, their soul does not go to some actual place and burn, but rather it exists in a state of being outside of the communion of God. that is why hell is so tormenting, because the soul, which ultimately has God as its last end, freely chose to refuse that end and is now in eternal pain because it wants God but cannot have him.
 
Mumbles140 said:
But don’t we, as Catholics, maintain that God is outside of time and space? I do not believe there is a physical ‘place’ outside of our universe, but there is something outside of the universe, and I believe that to be God.
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the problem with this is that God isn’t contained by anything and is at the same time everywhere. To say that God is outside of the universe is positing that God exists in a place and this is simply not the case. God by his very nature is not bond by any place. So god exists outside of our universe but not really.

This is hard to understand, but you must understand that God simply is. If we say that God exists outside of the universe we are adding more things onto his existence. God is and that is it.
 
catholictiger said:
Heaven is a state of the soul not a place. Well at-least till the second coming.

A new heaven and a new earth will be brought about after Christ comes than heaven will be a physical place. For now heaven is a state of departed souls not a place.

I don’t think there is any space outside of our universe.
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If heaven is not a place, where are Jesus and Mary?
 
Faith1960 said:
If heaven is not a place, where are Jesus and Mary?
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In heaven.

Plus I never said heaven isn’t a place, I said that currently heaven is a state of the soul and because of that heaven has no place in existence inside or outside of the universe.

My best guess is that the assumption and ascension also took them outside of time. So miraculously Mary and Jesus are both taken to the new heaven and the new earth, as the first and second to enter that new state of life. This is completely my own opinion on this, because I don’t believe devine revelation have talked about anything to the fact. We know what the glorified body is like, but we don’t know where the glorified body of Mary and Jesus exist before, from our perspective, the new heaven and new earth exist.

So some questions remain, that I have no idea how to answer.
  1. if the resurrection of the body have yet to occur, how do we have life after our death before that resurrection? The soul is nothing without a body, the hypostatic union of the human is necessary for life. How can we be in heaven if our soul is disconnected from our bodies, until the resurrection.
  2. IT is obvious that those who have passed before us still have impact on our reality, how is this possible? We know it happens but we don’t know how a bodiless soul can have an impact on anything even in heaven. It happens but we don’t know how, I don’t think.
  3. Will the new heaven and the new earth be bound by time? I don’t think so but who really knows, revelation is silent on what the new heaven and new earth will be like other than what our bodies will be like, that we will be in perfect communion with God and a few other things. Most of this is purely speculation.
/I’m sure there are more questions.

But the simple fact is, God exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time. So God exist outside of the universe and doesn’t exist outside of the universe at the same time.

All the terms we give God are things that help us understand him, but nothing we say about him is really what he is, it is only analogously like him.
 
catholictiger said:
In heaven.

Plus I never said heaven isn’t a place, I said that currently heaven is a state of the soul and because of that heaven has no place in existence inside or outside of the universe.

My best guess is that the assumption and ascension also took them outside of time. So miraculously Mary and Jesus are both taken to the new heaven and the new earth, as the first and second to enter that new state of life. This is completely my own opinion on this, because I don’t believe devine revelation have talked about anything to the fact. We know what the glorified body is like, but we don’t know where the glorified body of Mary and Jesus exist before, from our perspective, the new heaven and new earth exist.

So some questions remain, that I have no idea how to answer.
  1. if the resurrection of the body have yet to occur, how do we have life after our death before that resurrection? The soul is nothing without a body, the hypostatic union of the human is necessary for life. How can we be in heaven if our soul is disconnected from our bodies, until the resurrection.
  2. IT is obvious that those who have passed before us still have impact on our reality, how is this possible? We know it happens but we don’t know how a bodiless soul can have an impact on anything even in heaven. It happens but we don’t know how, I don’t think.
  3. Will the new heaven and the new earth be bound by time? I don’t think so but who really knows, revelation is silent on what the new heaven and new earth will be like other than what our bodies will be like, that we will be in perfect communion with God and a few other things. Most of this is purely speculation.
/I’m sure there are more questions.

But the simple fact is, God exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time. So God exist outside of the universe and doesn’t exist outside of the universe at the same time.

All the terms we give God are things that help us understand him, but nothing we say about him is really what he is, it is only analogously like him.
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You must remember that the spiritual soul is the life of the body, it is the source of immanent activity in the body. The soul is the most noble part of man, and most like God who is Pure Spirit. Life is synonymous with activity, so your intelligence, and you will are still active., and you, identified as a person having these faculties still exist. You will not have the physical part of your nature until the final judgement. And when you do your physical body will be spiritualized, as Jesus’ body was after His resurrection, and you will never suffer physical decay again. Spirits do not occupy space, only material things do. The spiritual world is superior to the physical world. It’s the Holy Spirit that brought the material world into creation. The material universe is limited and it, by it’s nature is not infinite, but goes on indefinitely because it’s Creator sustains it infinitely. God existing outside of the universe means that He is not part of the Universe. We have our existence or being in God, but not part of Him, He is simple, has no parts A spiritual soul, or individual is not confined or limited by the physical. AS stated, a spirit exists in a state of existence, and not in a place, the physical has no influence on the spiritual. The only way those that are separated from their bodies have impact on us is that God allows them, such as saints appearing to some people, or angels intervening in the lives of men. This happens more than people realize, and it’s not specualtion.

The Hypostatic Union refers to Jesus who had two natures, human and divine, but is a divine person, not a human person, but possessed human nature, That is why He is called God-man He was totally human, except for sin.
 
Bob_Crowley said:
It depends on what you mean by “space”. If you’re talking about the space of this universe, then obviously he’s correct.

But if you’re talking about the supernatural “space” occupied by God and the spiritual world, then we just don’t know.
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Sorry about the two serial replies both saying pretty much the same thing, but I sent the first one during the period when posts were not appearing immediately, and were being moderated. Since I couldn’t see it, I first assumed I’d somehow deleted it, or there was a problem with my computer, so a few minutes later I sent a second one.

Then I realised that everybody else was having the same problem.
 
ynotzap said:
You must remember that the spiritual soul is the life of the body, it is the source of immanent activity in the body. The soul is the most noble part of man, and most like God who is Pure Spirit. Life is synonymous with activity, so your intelligence, and you will are still active., and you, identified as a person having these faculties still exist. You will not have the physical part of your nature until the final judgement. And when you do your physical body will be spiritualized, as Jesus’ body was after His resurrection, and you will never suffer physical decay again. Spirits do not occupy space, only material things do. The spiritual world is superior to the physical world. It’s the Holy Spirit that brought the material world into creation. The material universe is limited and it, by it’s nature is not infinite, but goes on indefinitely because it’s Creator sustains it infinitely. God existing outside of the universe means that He is not part of the Universe. We have our existence or being in God, but not part of Him, He is simple, has no parts A spiritual soul, or individual is not confined or limited by the physical. AS stated, a spirit exists in a state of existence, and not in a place, the physical has no influence on the spiritual. The only way those that are separated from their bodies have impact on us is that God allows them, such as saints appearing to some people, or angels intervening in the lives of men. This happens more than people realize, and it’s not specualtion.

The Hypostatic Union refers to Jesus who had two natures, human and divine, but is a divine person, not a human person, but possessed human nature, That is why He is called God-man He was totally human, except for sin.
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no disrespect but this post isn’t the easiest to understand. What is your point? Are you trying to disprove my point, clarify something. Try to simplify things when you post. I understand most of what you are saying but I just don’t get why you are saying it.
 
catholictiger said:
the problem with this is that God isn’t contained by anything and is at the same time everywhere. To say that God is outside of the universe is positing that God exists in a place and this is simply not the case. God by his very nature is not bond by any place. So god exists outside of our universe but not really.

This is hard to understand, but you must understand that God simply is. If we say that God exists outside of the universe we are adding more things onto his existence. God is and that is it.
Click to expand...
I do understand. Sorry if I wasn’t more specific, but I didn’t mean that God was exclusively outside of time and space, but rather His Being exceeds the boundaries of time and space. I never meant for that to be taken as a ‘place’ (in fact, I specifically state this in my initial post) - I rather meant that what is outside of time and space is God.
 
Mumbles140 said:
I do understand. Sorry if I wasn’t more specific, but I didn’t mean that God was exclusively outside of time and space, but rather His Being exceeds the boundaries of time and space. I never meant for that to be taken as a ‘place’ (in fact, I specifically state this in my initial post) - I rather meant that what is outside of time and space is God.
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ok I got it.

to put it simply. You are correct and wrong at the same time. Even to say that his being exceeds the boundaries of time and space is in a way limiting to God. 😃

Your not wrong but I like to point out that every time someone mentions God they are in fact further from really knowing him. 😃
 
catholictiger said:
ok I got it.

to put it simply. You are correct and wrong at the same time. Even to say that his being exceeds the boundaries of time and space is in a way limiting to God. 😃

Your not wrong but I like to point out that every time someone mentions God they are in fact further from really knowing him. 😃
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Yes, I understand we use words that are bound by finite limits to describe the infinite, much like envisioning the Ascension as “Christ rising up from the ground and through the clouds like an airplane taking off”. However, these descriptions, though limited and potentially inaccurate, are what we must make do with to define our beliefs. So long as one understands that our words ‘represent’ ideas which we do not know the full truth of, one can use them without danger.
 
catholictiger said:
In heaven.

Plus I never said heaven isn’t a place, I said that currently heaven is a state of the soul and because of that heaven has no place in existence inside or outside of the universe.
answer:
Heaven is union with God, in the presence of the Beatific Vision , enjoyed in the spiritual universe which exists apart from the physical universe (might be considered to be outside of the universe analogously) Is there an outside of the physical universe? Two different states of existence, the physical and the spiritual.

My best guess is that the assumption and ascension also took them outside of time. So miraculously Mary and Jesus are both taken to the new heaven and the new earth, as the first and second to enter that new state of life. This is completely my own opinion on this, because I don’t believe devine revelation have talked about anything to the fact. We know what the glorified body is like, but we don’t know where the glorified body of Mary and Jesus exist before, from our perspective, the new heaven and new earth exist.

Answer:
The New Heaven and New Earth usually refers to Heaven and Earth after the final judgement were everything will be renewed. Humans will enjoy spiritualized bodies, and earth will no longer suffer decay and corruption. It has not occurred yet. Jesus and Mary presently reign in Heaven with those souls who are purified, but they still are awaiting to be untied with their bodies like Mary, and Jesus.

So some questions remain, that I have no idea how to answer.
  1. if the resurrection of the body have yet to occur, how do we have life after our death before that resurrection? The soul is nothing without a body, the hypostatic union of the human is necessary for life. How can we be in heaven if our soul is disconnected from our bodies, until the resurrection.
Answer: I already stated that the soul is the life of the body, it is the source of life, being the source of life, it is either living in Hell, Purgatory or Heaven, very much alive. Resurrection refers to the union of body and soul on the last day, at the final judgement
It is the soul that gives life to the body, and not the body that gives life to the soul. It is created directly by God. I explained the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which refers to Jesus, and not to humans, wrong association. You don’t have to be united to a body to be in Heaven. Heaven is a spiritual state of existence, and the soul is a spiritual being ( a person without a body) All the saints in Heaven are not united to their bodies. They can exist there because they are spiritual.
  1. IT is obvious that those who have passed before us still have impact on our reality, how is this possible? We know it happens but we don’t know how a bodiless soul can have an impact on anything even in heaven. It happens but we don’t know how, I don’t think.
  2. Will the new heaven and the new earth be bound by time? I don’t think so but who really knows, revelation is silent on what the new heaven and new earth will be like other than what our bodies will be like, that we will be in perfect communion with God and a few other things. Most of this is purely speculation.
Answer: 2)
Those who passed before us are still alive, not physically, but spiritually. They can intercede for us, by God’s permission appear to us, the Church’s history can validate these events, they do have an impact on our reality. After all the spiritual is more powerful than the physical. Miracles happen through their intercession. They also impact our lives by their example of following Christ in their lives.

Answer: 3)
I can only speculate about the New Heaven and New Earth. Time is considered change, change is part of our nature, which will not change, but it will no longer be subject to physical laws because our bodies will be spritualized, we will reign in a state of glory according to our spiritual growth on earth, “In my house there are many mansions” So I don’t think there will any basic change in our nature, but it will be spiritualized, no longer suffer from hunger, death, not limited in movement, radiant with glory like Jesus’ glorified body. We will be continually enjoying life with God who will keep supplying us with Himself and it will take an eternity to receive that supplying of Himself, so that will be the change that we will experience, a continual change.

/I’m sure there are more questions.

But the simple fact is, God exists everywhere and nowhere at the same time. So God exist outside of the universe and doesn’t exist outside of the universe at the same time.

answer:

God is Omnipresent, present every where and always will be. We have our being in God. God exists apart from the universe is what we mean by outside of the universe, He is not confined by location.

I hope you see where I had to make some clarifications. If you have any doubts I’m sure the library at the seminary can supply and verify the answers I gave.

All the terms we give God are things that help us understand him, but nothing we say about him is really what he is, it is only analogously like him.
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answer:
There are somethings we can know about God, that are not analogies. That He is the I am who Am, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God We can know more from the Fathers of the Church, it’s teachers, and from Holy Scripture, and Apostolic Tradition, the deposit of our Faith

I am sorry that I am not adept at the computer, I tried the best I could to make things clear without the blocking feature, so I apologized.
 
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