Paleolithic beliefs

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It is proven that Sapiens were believers but what do you think of Neanderthals? By the way they buried their dead, a shallow ditch with the corpse on its side, it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife and thus were atheists. Isn’t this interesting? May be there a connection with their extinction?
 
It is proven that Sapiens were believers but what do you think of Neanderthals? By the way they buried their dead, a shallow ditch with the corpse on its side, it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife and thus were atheists. Isn’t this interesting? May be there a connection with their extinction?
How can you tell by the burial position that they did not believe?

Body on its side is a natural sleeping position. Could it be that, like modern human beings, they hoped that death would one day prove to be a sleep from which they would be awakened?

The current belief is that HN and HS interbred in the past. This compatibility would have made HN human, ISTM, whatever the modern species labels may say, and therefore had a human soul.

We really can’t know.

ICXC NIKA
 
How can you tell by the burial position that they did not believe?

Body on its side is a natural sleeping position. Could it be that, like modern human beings, they hoped that death would one day prove to be a sleep from which they would be awakened?

The current belief is that HN and HS interbred in the past. This compatibility would have made HN human, ISTM, whatever the modern species labels may say, and therefore had a human soul.

We really can’t know.

ICXC NIKA
Exactly correct, since, to the best of current knowledge, none of the truly ancient people had a written language. Without that, determining the meanings behind burial practices is virtually impossible.
 
It is proven that Sapiens were believers…
I’m curious. What is known about what early homo sapiens believed?
… By the way they buried their dead, a shallow ditch with the corpse on its side, it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife…
I don’t think the depth of the grave tells us much. Primitive peoples may have believed, for example, that a shallow burial allows easier release of the spirit or the resurrected body. In this way of thinking, deep burial would trap the deceased, keep them down, or even torment them.

I think other kinds of evidence would be clearer. For example, if the deceased was dressed in special clothing after death, or if items were buried with them, that would suggest there was a belief in afterlife. If you learned that they were buried facing to the east, would you draw a different conclusion? (I’m not saying they were, but what if?)
… it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife and thus were atheists.
Afterlife and theism are two separate aspects of religion that do not necessarily go together. Yes, they are closely connected in our religion, but don’t assume that primitive people had the same understanding. Don’t you think, for example, a primitive people could believe in reincarnation without the need for a god to make it happen?

They didn’t know about genetics, so reincarnation would be an obvious explanation for the inheritance of physical and personality traits. “She looks just like her deceased grandmother,” or “His bad temper reminds me so much of his deceased father.”
 
It is proven that Sapiens were believers
Really? I hadn’t seen that – where did you find that info?
but what do you think of Neanderthals? By the way they buried their dead, a shallow ditch with the corpse on its side, it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife and thus were atheists. Isn’t this interesting? May be there a connection with their extinction?
How does a body being on it’s side prove atheism? :confused:

Some researchers think the very fact that they took care to bury the dead shows they may have had some sort of spiritual beliefs.
 
It is proven that Sapiens were believers but what do you think of Neanderthals? By the way they buried their dead, a shallow ditch with the corpse on its side, it looks they did not believe not even in the afterlife and thus were atheists. Isn’t this interesting? May be there a connection with their extinction?
The earliest religions were animist, basically a belief in souls. There’s no evidence for any belief in deities (polytheism) until the Bronze Age, and no evidence of this developing into a belief in a single deity (monotheism) until later still.

So early humans were, technically, atheists - they believed in supernatural spirits of ancestors and animals but not in deities.

Not many Neanderthal sites have been discovered and it’s hard to interpret the evidence, but there’s a site in Southern Spain which seems to have held ritual significance, which indicates presence of beliefs. - news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/neanderthal-burial-ground-afterlife-110420.htm
 
The earliest religions were animist, basically a belief in souls. There’s no evidence for any belief in deities (polytheism) until the Bronze Age, and no evidence of this developing into a belief in a single deity (monotheism) until later still.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the Kingdom of Ur was a pre-bronze age kingdom, and they had a defined pantheon of gods.
 
The earliest religions were animist, basically a belief in souls. There’s no evidence for any belief in deities (polytheism) until the Bronze Age
Can you give more details? How do we know what their beliefs were? Do we have their writings? Archeological sites? What info do we use to infer their beliefs?

Yesterday I was reading The Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton. He seemed to say that the only information we had from cavemen was pictures of animals in their caves. And some scholars looked at those pictures and said it was proof that they didn’t have advanced art because there was no evidence of chiseling or mixed paint, only scratches and clay. Another scholar said that since no pictures were overtly religious, it meant they had no religion.

Chesterton pointed out that modern people sometimes explore caves and scratch their initials on the walls. He wondered if, someday, people would date these scratches to the 1900s, and conclude that people who lived in our time didn’t have advanced art or religion for the same reasons modern scholars use to conclude that cavemen didn’t have advanced art or religion.

I think the warning is that one shouldn’t infer more information from limited data than it warrants. If we see pictures of animals, that only proves that cavemen could draw stuff, and that animals were significant enough to them that they drew them.
 
Can you give more details? How do we know what their beliefs were? Do we have their writings? Archeological sites? What info do we use to infer their beliefs?

Yesterday I was reading The Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton. He seemed to say that the only information we had from cavemen was pictures of animals in their caves. And some scholars looked at those pictures and said it was proof that they didn’t have advanced art because there was no evidence of chiseling or mixed paint, only scratches and clay. Another scholar said that since no pictures were overtly religious, it meant they had no religion.

Chesterton pointed out that modern people sometimes explore caves and scratch their initials on the walls. He wondered if, someday, people would date these scratches to the 1900s, and conclude that people who lived in our time didn’t have advanced art or religion for the same reasons modern scholars use to conclude that cavemen didn’t have advanced art or religion.

I think the warning is that one shouldn’t infer more information from limited data than it warrants. If we see pictures of animals, that only proves that cavemen could draw stuff, and that animals were significant enough to them that they drew them.
Chesterton wrote that in 1925, before most of the archeology had taken place. He may not have known that paintings are often found in caves which show no sign of habitation, as if those caves were set aside (for ritual purposes or just as galleries).

Some paintings show great artistry and intellect, especially given the primitive materials available:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting

This Wikipedia article has a number of references you might find useful on religion. You’re right that as the evidence is sketchy, in the end you have to look at it for yourself and make up your own mind. For instance when “grave goods” (supplies and artifacts) are found buried with someone, it seems reasonable to infer a belief that they were needed for the afterlife, but you may disagree.
 
Chesterton wrote that in 1925, before most of the archeology had taken place. He may not have known that paintings are often found in caves which show no sign of habitation, as if those caves were set aside (for ritual purposes or just as galleries).
I think he does show signs of knowing that. For example, he says, The [cave] pictures do not prove even that the cave-men lived in caves… The cave might have had a special purpose like the cellar; it might have been a religious shrine or a refuge in war or the meeting-place of a secret society or all sorts of things. source
Some paintings show great artistry and intellect, especially given the primitive materials available
I think Chesterton also appreciates this. Speaking of the cave drawings, he says: [T]hey were drawn or painted not only by a man but by an artist. Under whatever archaic limitations, they showed [a] love of the long sweeping or the long wavering line which any man who has ever drawn or tried to draw will recognize… They showed the experimental and adventurous spirit of the artist, the spirit that does not avoid but attempts difficult things…[like] the action of the stag when he swings his head clean round and noses towards his tail, an action familiar enough in the horse. … In this and twenty other details it is clear that the artist had watched animals with a certain interest… source I think Chesterton’s thinking is quite interesting in how it anticipated modern theories before modern times. Or perhaps others in his time thought the same thing, though he seems to say that most others conceived of cavemen as more barbaric than he thought the evidence warranted: We are always told without any explanation or authority that primitive man waved a club and knocked the woman down before he carried her off. … In fact, people have been interested in everything about the cave-man except what he did in the cave. Now there does happen to be some real evidence of what he did in the cave. It is little enough, like all the prehistoric evidence, but it is concerned with the real cave-man and his cave and not the literary cave-man and his club. And it will be valuable to our sense of reality to consider quite simply what that real evidence is, and not to go beyond it. What was found in the cave was not the club, the horrible gory club notched with the number of women it had knocked on the head. … They were drawings or paintings of animals. source Another good quote is this one: [A] a little while after [the cave paintings were found], people discovered not only paintings but sculptures of animals in the caves. Some of these were said to be damaged with dints or holes supposed to be the marks of arrows; and the damaged images were conjectured to be the remains of some magic rite of killing the beasts in effigy; while the undamaged images were explained in connection with another magic rite invoking fertility upon the herds. Here again there is something faintly humorous about the scientific habit of having it both ways. If the image is damaged it proves one superstition and if it is undamaged it proves another. Here again there is a rather reckless jumping to conclusions; it has hardly occurred to the speculators that a crowd of hunters imprisoned in winter in a cave might conceivably have aimed at a mark for fun, as a sort of primitive parlor game. source
This Wikipedia article has a number of references you might find useful on religion.
Thank you.
You’re right that as the evidence is sketchy, in the end you have to look at it for yourself and make up your own mind. For instance when “grave goods” (supplies and artifacts) are found buried with someone, it seems reasonable to infer a belief that they were needed for the afterlife, but you may disagree.
No, I think that’s reasonable enough. But though that suggests to us that they believed in an afterlife, it doesn’t show us that they disbelieved in God, and for myself, I would count it as evidence that they did.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the Kingdom of Ur was a pre-bronze age kingdom, and they had a defined pantheon of gods.
Catching up from the CAF emails I realize I missed this the other day, sorry.

Not sure. I think the first evidence of them worshiping their moon god is after the start of the Bronze Age, although the city was founded earlier.

And their god was a patron or tribal god. I think the first belief in a single transcendent God comes later still.
 
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