Papacy Unnecessary?

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BarbaraTherese:
I refer to Post #11 by Chicago yesterday 4.46pm

I found the above quoted paragraph interesting. First from another Post above, how did the Petrine Ministry function prior Constantine?
I can certainly insight that in today’s world, any Pope has a massive responsiblity and overwhelming duties on his plate?..almost I would think anyway too much for one man if Grace and The Holy Spirit were not with him. Certainly to my mind it is an unenviable ‘job’! I never realized that The Catholic Church could function other than with a Papacy and one Pope. We are a monarchy under Jesus Christ…and in honesty and I am seeking to understand…can the ‘Papacy’ function within the laws of Catholicism as something other than the Papacy as we know it?
i.e. is it possible within our laws for the Papacy to be a commitee or something similar? …I can’t quite get what is being inferred in this thread and probably my poverty! My mind is open, I am merely seeking to understand?

Barb
12.45pm
The papacy has evolved to indicate a position of goverance and authority as it’s primary function, particularly as concerns his role as Patriarch of the West. It seems that the past pope may have liked to see the role of the Petrine ministry moved a bit away from this focus to one more of a servant witness who shares ministry with the other bishops in collegiality, his office of authority being appealed to only in cases of necessity and assurance for the union and definition of faith and fatherly guidance. In some way, I think that is the way in which he lived his ministry also - and why he is critcized by some as not being enough of a disciplinarian ruler.
 
One of the tendencies we have is to take what we know today of the Papacy and read it back into history as if it were always just this way.

That isn’t really possible.

Also, we can see much justification for the Papacy in biblical and early Christian (Patristic) writings, but we might overlook the fact that the Papacy could have developed somewhat differently and still be justified by those scriptural and Patristic references.

For instance we know today the Pope names bishops around the world, he will transfer them from one diocese to another as well (he also occasionally removes bishops without reassigning them). This never happened in the church in the first millenium and probably not much even 300 years ago. It’s a new thing.

Today bishops from southern India, Ethiopia and Pittsburgh have regular Ad Limina vists to Rome, to make a report to the Pope about the goings on in their churches. This couldn’t happen until the advent of modern transportation. Regular Ad Limina visits were not possible until recent times in church history.

When St Peter was still with us he knew all of the Apostles, but chose none of them. We know Matthias was chosen by a council of Apostles, not Peter alone. In the time before his own martyrdom Peter must have known most of the bishops personally, that was to be expected as much as they were still a small group and most of them had travelled together at some point, but he did not name them all or install them all. Later as the church grew it was impossible for Rome to know who all of the bishops were, they were usually chosen by the local synods and frequently by the local princes or kings. The bishop of Romes absolute control was limited to his immediate diocese, except when he could get the political authorities to support him.

In this sense the Patriarch of Constantinople must have had far more real authority in his own region (from the fourth century until the tenth) than the Pope had in his own region in the comparable time period.

Eventually we reached a historical period when concordats could be negotiated with modern civil authorities in various countries, this was a major source for the power the Papacy enjoys today. These concordats were sometimes negotiated after a period of persecution, when the local church was in a weakened state and discredited because of it’s connections to the previous regime. I would like to see a list of all the concordats currently in force, they are as important in church history (in their own way) as church councils but seldom discussed.

The invention of steam power and the telegraph made it possible to communicate more rapidly, and the highly centralized Papacy we have come to know was born.

+T+
Michael
 
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WhiteDove:
He said that during WWII they were even talking about moving the Church headquarters to Quebec. He said that it doesn’t have to be set up the way it is now.
Historically the papacy when threatened has been temporally moved from Rome on a number of occasions. Usually to some other part of what is modern day Italy. Probably the longest was to Avignon in France. During the reign of Pius IX and Leo XIII consideration was given to moving it into any number of other European countries including Austria, Germany, Spain, France, Portugal, etc. In fact papal representatives cleared the possibility more than once with the goverments of those places. I don’t think anyone on this thread has been saying we need to get rid of the Pope. It seems that there are some open to a change in the manner in which the Pope discharges his responsibilties and perhaps in the organizational structure currently in place to support his reign.
 
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WhiteDove:
He says that we don’t live for the Pope but for Christ.
Hi WhiteDove:

“He” is very correct! Catholics do not, and never have, lived for the Pope over Christ!
 
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WhiteDove:
Dear Barbara,
I wasn’t inferring anything, just raising the topic because my priest gave a homily on the subject. He said that the Petrine Ministry is one set up by Christ through Peter, but the Papacy as we know it evolved over time, and could continue to change in it’s form in the times to come.
Hi there WhiteDove…I think we are perhaps meeting again, good to see ya!
WhiteDove, I think you rather got the bull by the tail. I was not referring to your post specifically when I asked what was being inferred…I had read to my recall all posts in this thread to that particular date, and I was simply confused. I still am… what does ‘change its form’ mean? I do not mean to be rude at all…Obviously, or so it seems to me, you must have some concept in mind by using the word ‘form’…what is the current ‘form’ and how can it change. It is not a challenge, but an honest question I am asking… it is a speculative question.

Regards
Barb, Bethany Place, Sth. Aust
Sat. 16.4.05 2256hrs.
 
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WhiteDove:
Actually, he is the one I’ve gone to for advise. He is a good counselor. I mentioned it to another priest whom I keep in touch with by email. I described the whole homily. He understood the intellectual point that Father was making but agreed with me that it was a little disrespectful to say that the day after the Holy Father died.

I suspect my priest wasn’t a big fan of JPII, although he said that he was a very good man. I think he may have disagreed with him over some issues.
such as…? Does he want female priests? married priests? abortion/birthcontrol ok’d? I might be jumping the gun and stereotyping, but I have lost respect for priests pushing for these issues to be changed in the Church…
 
Hi out there somewhere in cyberspace!👋

This may seem off the point of this thread, but if you have seen the movie, you will understand why perhaps it is indeed not. The movie is a comedy and I borrowed it about 3yrs. ago from my video store… sadly I do not now seem to be able to get a copy of it but I’ll keep on searching.
It is called “Kill The Pope” and it is not at all anti Catholic…in fact it shows how God intervenes through an act of nature to save The Church.
The Mafia are trying to take over the Papacy but a simple clerical error sees a rock n roll monk (a simple, humble man who only wants to look after the children in the orphanage where he is chaplain…oft entertaining them with his guitar and rock n roll) elected to The Papacy instead of the Mafia Cardinal.

All I can say, is if you can get your hands on it it is an A1 movie, I’d give 5 stars to…because I laughed from beginning to end and also learnt something.

Regards
Barb, Bethany Place, Sth. Aust.
Sat. 16.4.05 2307hrs

P.S. No! I am not suggesting that The Mafia is trying to take over The Papacy:whistle: …see the movie!:rotfl:
 
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