Papal infallibility

[Light1111]

Hello to all!

Recently there have been quite a few threads about Papal Infallibility. I have to admit that in my youth as a Catholic, I never was introduced to this idea; it is new to me. Having read a few of your posts/threads and responses on this topic, I have a question that I wonder if you could address?

Since all humans are less-than-Godlike, and we can only hope to attain to His Will; since all humans err; since all humans confuse things; etc. – why do we suppose that by mere virtue of being elected Pope, all of these conditions of humanity go out the window?

Please understand I mean no disrespect to any Pope, past present or future. I’m simply trying to understand why, in Catholicism, we state that the Pope (a human) is infallible.

Is it that Catholics believe that everything the Pope says and does is directed by God? Or that his “office” in itself contradicts the possibility for mistakes? (Meaning, the honor itself negates potential errors, etc.?)

A hypothetical situation (strictly hypothetical): suppose a person manages to appear to others that he is one of God’s most humble servants, and goes about life in the priesthood in this manner. He is promoted to Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, etc. and time passes; in time he rises to Pope.

Could it ever happen that such a person had a devious intent throughout this period of time, and was a chameleon, capable of convincing others he was good at heart, yet had an ulterior motive all the while? Are we assuming all those within the Church who further this hypothetical man in his career path are all capable of knowing for certainty that he merits his promotions down to the core of his heart and soul?

Again, I’m only being hypothetical, not criticizing any living Pope, but I’d like to understand how anyone can be certain that a Pope is infallible?

Thank you for considering my question; I assure you it is sincere.
Peace.

EDIT:
Apology: I mis-posted this; It’s in the wrong sub-forum.

 

[NHInsider]

Hi-

the Popes in their human-ness are not infallible. The promise of Jesus is to the Church, and to the office as earthly head of the Church. So the Pope, as head of the Apostolic college of bishops (successor to Peter, who was head of the Apostles) is protected from error when he proclaims a teaching as being “from God.” - the way the Apostles did in Acts 15 (“it seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us”)

There have been some really bad popes (as well as some really saintly ones, some really brilliant ones, and a whole bunch of sort of ordinary ones). Being ordained Pope doesn’t instantly turn them into something other than what they are.

So in your hypothetical situation, even if the chameleon had the worst intent and was completely unregenerate, the Lord would prevent him from declaring something as true that was not true.

The fact that none of the really wicked popes ever promulgated some teaching that was contrary to the faith received from the Apostles probably testifies to this protection.

Hope that helps . . .

 

[Light1111]

It does help. It answers my question. So basically the belief is that God will protect the Catholic Church and its constituents, from any ill-intent, or any error, on the part of the Pope, because God will intervene and assure the necessary heartfelt intentions in the newly elected official.

That goes a long way in answering my question, and I thank you greatly for taking the time!

Peace!

 

[bkayw]

The two doctrines on Mary are the most current infallible papal declarations.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854 as a truth not merely implied by the deposit of faith and discerned by the Church under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit (de fide tenenda), but as specifically and explicitly contained as an object of supernatural faith in the Public Revelation of the Deposit of Faith (de fide credenda).

Mary was assumed into heaven with body and soul (de fide). Mary, the ever virgin, mother of God was free of original sin. The Immaculate Conception is one basis for the 1950 dogma. Another was the century old Church-wide veneration of the Virgin Mary as being assumed into heaven, which Pope Pius XII referred to in Deiparae Virginis Mariae and reported in Munificentissimus Deus

 

[inkaneer]

It does help. It answers my question. So basically the belief is that God will protect the Catholic Church and its constituents, from any ill-intent, or any error, on the part of the Pope, because God will intervene and assure the necessary heartfelt intentions in the newly elected official.

That goes a long way in answering my question, and I thank you greatly for taking the time!

Peace!

Generally speaking what you stated is, in most part, correct but to be more specific there are numerous scriptural passages on which papal infallibility is based. The one most specific is Mt 16 :18-19. Here Jesus renames Simon as Petros [Rock] and then says that on this Rock Jesus will establish His church. He then gives Peter the keys to heaven and says that whatever Peter binds on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever Peter loosens on earth will be loosed in heaven. Now this is power pure and simple. If you don’t believe that then name one other person who has the power to bind something in heaven. No one, not even the president of the United States, can do that. But a fisherman from Galilee and his successors could.

Now I have heard some scholars say that the passage in Mt 16 18-19 is not correctly translated. According to them it should say that whatever Peter binds on earth will have already been bound in heaven. That’s even better because if it is already bound in heaven there is no way Peter or his successors could get it wrong, now can they?

There is a parallel OT verse to Mt 16:18-19. It is Isaiah 22:22 where it speaks of the chief steward of the king who is given keys to the kings house with the authority to lock and unlock, or to open or shut. The parallel is striking. The OT king is a Davidic king [of the line of David]. Jesus is a king and is of the line of David. The OT Davidic kings had 12 stewards [one from every tribe] to help the king in ruling the kingdom. Jesus had 12 Apostles. One of these stewards was selected by the king as the chief steward and given the keys to the kingdom. Jesus the King selects Peter to be His chief steward and gives him the keys to the kingdom.

Now, it is best to know what papal infallibility is and what it is not. Take these two statements:

1. Papal infallibility means that the pope cannot make a mistake.
2. Papal infallibility means that the Holy Spirit protects the pope from error under certain conditions.

Is there a difference? Yes, there is a big difference. Statement #1 is not correct and statement #2 is correct. In the second statement the infallibility resides with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus called the “Spirit of truth” in John’s gospel that protected the scripture writers from writing error. The first statement implies that the infallibility resides in the pope. It does not. The pope merely enjoys the guidance of the Holy Spirit as did the writers of scripture so that He will not teach error.

Also in Mt 16:18-19 Jesus states that the forces of hell will not prevail against the church. How could hell prevail against the church? The only way would be for the church to teach error. Remember Jesus gave the Church its marching orders when He told the Apostles to baptize and to preach the gospel. If the church preached error then hell prevails and Jesus lied and the scriptures contain error. But what of sin? After all there have been some rogue popes who have committed some pretty dastardly crimes. But Peter sinned and not only was forgiven but was told to shepherd Jesus’s sheep [John 21:15-17]. The fact is no matter how wicked some of the popes have been the Holy Spirit still protected them from teaching error.

In short, papal infallibility is not about the Pope, its all about the Holy Spirit.

 

[Light1111]

I was moved by the passages you quoted! They were new to me. I appreciate what you posted greatly!

Thank you and peace to you!
Light1111

 

[Croc]

The two doctrines on Mary are the most current infallible papal declarations.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854 as a truth not merely implied by the deposit of faith and discerned by the Church under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit (de fide tenenda), but as specifically and explicitly contained as an object of supernatural faith in the Public Revelation of the Deposit of Faith (de fide credenda).

Mary was assumed into heaven with body and soul (de fide). Mary, the ever virgin, mother of God was free of original sin. The Immaculate Conception is one basis for the 1950 dogma. Another was the century old Church-wide veneration of the Virgin Mary as being assumed into heaven, which Pope Pius XII referred to in Deiparae Virginis Mariae and reported in Munificentissimus Deus

With all due respect for all religious leaders, I respect the Popes for leading such a big number of faithfuls. But am worried that Christ is loosing preeminence that is due to Him.
The dogmas seem to alienate Christ more and more than to embrace him more closely.

 

[Abu]

Croc #7
The dogmas seem to alienate Christ more and more than to embrace him more closely.

The Christ mandated to Peter alone::
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

To His Apostles at the Last Supper:
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

Thus does the Christ give supreme authority to His Supreme Vicar to teach in His Name.

So on whose authority and why should the Marian dogmas be anti-Christ?

 

[adrift]

With all due respect for all religious leaders, I respect the Popes for leading such a big number of faithfuls. But am worried that Christ is loosing preeminence that is due to Him.
The dogmas seem to alienate Christ more and more than to embrace him more closely.

Please note that forum rules ask us not to post to OLD threads. This is three years old.

If you would like to discuss this, please start a new thread.