Papal Titles - Holy Roman Empire

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I wonder if a church historian can help me or if I am in the correct forum.

I have noted in the biographies of prominent churchmen (clergy and lay) that a certain personage was made a “Count of the Holy Roman Empire” such as Archbishop Michael Kelly of Sydney:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kelly_(bishop

It says that many of these Counts were created in the 1800s and 1900s, which is after the Holy Roman Empire ceased.

Are these titles such as Count conferred by the Pope or was it by some other monarchy?

I appreciate that this is an esoteric question but thought someone here might know.

Thank you.
 
Perhaps the Wikipedia writer meant to write “Holy Roman Church”? I don’t see the Vatican giving out secular titles, especially regarding countries that no longer existed.
 
The Pope was able to create counts as a secular sovereign. Any prince, including Monaco, which is a dot on the map, can do it. A couple of non-sovereign aristocratic princes could do it if they really wanted.

The Pope created counts of the Apostolic Palace or something along those lines.

As for the Pope being capable of creating titles of the Holy Roman Empire, of which he was not the sovereign, I don’t know. Some people were able to confer Holy Roman Empire knighthoods despite not being the sovereign. Perhaps the Pope, as someone much grander than this or that head of an aristocratic family, had an imperial privilege to enable him to create counts. Such a privilege could perhaps outlive the Holy Roman Empire itself. Such oddities tend to be tolerated when it comes to titles. This is probably largely because titles are pretty much only honorary and have been so for centuries. A mediaeval count was a local kinglet, whereas even in the renaissance period he was just a rich guy with connections and a shiny title.

EDIT: That was Count of the Lateran Palace. Which would hint at the old tradition where a count, “comes” in Latin, was a companion of the monarch. In classical Latin, “comes” is a companion, by the way. This includes the guy you happen to be out hiking with.

Go here at wiki for papal counts:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Count#Holy_See

And yes, the “Roman Count” seems to be something awardable by either the Pope or the Emperor while essentially being the same thing no matter which one of them conferred it. So perhaps the Pope was able to create Counts of the HRE.

But he would have been able to create counts of the Holy See or Papal Estates too, being a sovereign. There are funny situations with that entitlement of sovereigns sometimes, because in certain jurisdictions elected republican presidents are at least theoretically allowed to bestow noble titles, while themselves potentially being commoners.

Nowadays, as you see, the Popes tend to limit themselves to awarding orders. Orders are like medals, except they function around the traditional fiction of a knightly order with ranks, in which it differs from simply getting a more advanced version of a medal (e.g. with oak clusters or with a star). Nobility titles these days are basically medals anyway. They don’t do a thing other than making your name fancier, even if they still sometimes devolve to your offspring as their inheritance.
 
The Pope was able to create counts as a secular sovereign. Any prince, including Monaco, which is a dot on the map, can do it. A couple of non-sovereign aristocratic princes could do it if they really wanted.

The Pope created counts of the Apostolic Palace or something along those lines.

As for the Pope being capable of creating titles of the Holy Roman Empire, of which he was not the sovereign, I don’t know. Some people were able to confer Holy Roman Empire knighthoods despite not being the sovereign. Perhaps the Pope, as someone much grander than this or that head of an aristocratic family, had an imperial privilege to enable him to create counts. Such a privilege could perhaps outlive the Holy Roman Empire itself. Such oddities tend to be tolerated when it comes to titles. This is probably largely because titles are pretty much only honorary and have been so for centuries. A mediaeval count was a local kinglet, whereas even in the renaissance period he was just a rich guy with connections and a shiny title.

EDIT: That was Count of the Lateran Palace. Which would hint at the old tradition where a count, “comes” in Latin, was a companion of the monarch. In classical Latin, “comes” is a companion, by the way. This includes the guy you happen to be out hiking with.

Go here at wiki for papal counts:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Count#Holy_See

And yes, the “Roman Count” seems to be something awardable by either the Pope or the Emperor while essentially being the same thing no matter which one of them conferred it. So perhaps the Pope was able to create Counts of the HRE.

But he would have been able to create counts of the Holy See or Papal Estates too, being a sovereign. There are funny situations with that entitlement of sovereigns sometimes, because in certain jurisdictions elected republican presidents are at least theoretically allowed to bestow noble titles, while themselves potentially being commoners.

Nowadays, as you see, the Popes tend to limit themselves to awarding orders. Orders are like medals, except they function around the traditional fiction of a knightly order with ranks, in which it differs from simply getting a more advanced version of a medal (e.g. with oak clusters or with a star). Nobility titles these days are basically medals anyway. They don’t do a thing other than making your name fancier, even if they still sometimes devolve to your offspring as their inheritance.
Thank you Chevalier. This is very helpful.
 
The pope as a sovereign can legitimately confer titles of nobility and knighthood on any person whom he chooses to honour. A papal honour is recognised in international law as an honour from a Head of State and a Sovereign person. Therefore, a papal knighthood is on par with knighthoods conferred by the King of Spain or the British queen.

The popes can and have conferred noble titles - prince, marquis, duke, count, viscount and baron. These noble titles were either hereditary or personal to the person depending on the grant. A papal dukedom is equal in rank to a British dukedom or a Spanish dukedom. The title most frequently conferred was “count”. But, not Count of the holy Roman Empire. the popes NEVER conferred this title as it was the right of the Holy Emperor to do so. The last HRE was the Emperor of Austria who held the title of HRE until 1806 when the title was abolished.

The popes have not been generous with noble titles during the past 70 years or so. Pius XII rarely conferred a noble title but did offer Rose Kennedy one. She was a papal countess.
John Paul II conferred several titles of “count” upon persons in Poland.

There are still persons today who hold papal noble titles that have come to them by hereditary right.

Today, the popes most frequently confer Knighthoods on persons of eminent repute and character for services to the world and to the church. These knighthoods are papal or pontifical and come from the pope or through his representative. Knighthoods do not make a person a noble. The knight or dame receives a medal or decoration of the Order of Knightood to which they have been named and a large parchment scroll indicating their status as knights/dames and members of the papal household. These scrolls bear the seal of the Vatican Secretariat of State.

The pope also bestows two medals of honour upon persons. The Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal and the Benemerenti medal. The recognize high achievement and merit to the local church.

The American based and founded Knights of Columbus is not a papal or pontifical order of knighthood and indeed is not an order of knighthood at all but rather a Catholic men’s fraternal insurance association which uses the nomenclature of “knight” to espouse the knightly virtues its members should emulate. The Knights of Columbus are a worthy Catholic organisation to which all Catholic men should join as it does great works of charity for many around the world and builds spiritual character in its members.
 
No, I am not a papal count but use the moniker here and on a couple of blogs.
I am however a papal knight having received a papal knighthood in 1990.
God bless.
 
It is very helpful to have such wise people to draw on here at CAF. Many thanks.
 
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