Paradox of block universe

[Bahman]

God is in state of timeless. God is omniscient. This means that we are dealing with a block universe since all states of universe are known from God point of view. This means that motion is an illusion. We however experience changes. This means that changes can only be described in term of changing the perspective of agents. This however impossible since it requires that all agents are synchronised in what they experience.

 

[GEddie]

Is a block universe one that is made from LEGO?

 

[Bahman]

Is a block universe one that is made from LEGO?

Yes it is exactly like that. There is one state of affair at any give time.

 

[Bahman]

Is a block universe one that is made from LEGO?

The block universe to be more precise is a set of universe’s states which are all defined and fixed.

 

[balto]

The block universe to be more precise is a set of universe’s states which are all defined and fixed.

It is not clear to me how this definition of “block universe” precludes the reality of motion. To say that there is there are facts concerning what will happen at every moment of the universe does not imply that change is not real.

Even if you dismiss free will and argue that everything that occurs in the universe is deterministic, such that each state implies only a single subsequent state, you still have the reality of change of one state to another. How does God’s timelessness and omniscience cast doubt on any of this?

 

[Mary_Estelle]

Why do you obsess on God??

 

[balto]

Is a block universe one that is made from LEGO?

Yes GEddie, that is exactly right. Contrary to what Bahman has written, the block universe can actually change in any number of infinite ways when God’s dog chews on the blocks, distorting their shapes and making them unable to stack nicely with each other, resulting in disorderly chaos. Philosophers have spent many eons attempting to understand the intricacies of these block universes.

 

[Hatikvah]

Why do you obsess on God??

I believe that, using philosophy and deep discussion as his means, Bahman is trying to find Divinity. It seems as such.

 

[Bahman]

It is not clear to me how this definition of “block universe” precludes the reality of motion.

Motion is real when an object exist only in one location and moves from one location to another one in a given duration. In block theory object exist in different positions in specific instances so motion is unreal. It is the change in perspective of an agent which results in experience of change.

To say that there is there are facts concerning what will happen at every moment of the universe does not imply that change is not real.

Change as I used it for experience of current state is real.

Even if you dismiss free will and argue that everything that occurs in the universe is deterministic, such that each state implies only a single subsequent state, you still have the reality of change of one state to another.

There is no problem related to block universe and free will.

How does God’s timelessness and omniscience cast doubt on any of this?

I don’t understand your question.

 

[Bahman]

Why do you obsess on God??

I am not obsessed with the idea of God. I however believe that we sometimes hide our ignorance behind the concept of God. I don’t know what God is but I know what God isn’t, including Christian’s God. I am simply searching the truth.

 

[Bahman]

Yes GEddie, that is exactly right. Contrary to what Bahman has written, the block universe can actually change in any number of infinite ways when God’s dog chews on the blocks, distorting their shapes and making them unable to stack nicely with each other, resulting in disorderly chaos. Philosophers have spent many eons attempting to understand the intricacies of these block universes.

That is incorrect. Block universe cannot change since that requires a change in God’s knowledge which later is impossible for a changeless God.

 

[balto]

Motion is real when an object exist only in one location and moves from one location to another one in a given duration. In block theory object exist in different positions in specific instances so motion is unreal. It is the change in perspective of an agent which results in experience of change.

I guess we need to clarify terms. By “motion”, do you mean “change in place?” If so then modern relativity theory seems to confirm your thesis that motion is relative to an agent.

I think that is plausible. But I don’t see how it follows that motion is therefore unreal. Evidently it can cause real change in an agent’s relationship to other agents. But if motion is not real it should have no causal influence over anything that is real.

I don’t understand your question.

You opened the OP by stating that God is timeless and omniscient. Then you said that these facts about God demonstrate that the universe is a block universe, which demonstrates that motion is an illusion. I was asking how God being timeless and omniscient causes motion to be unreal.

 

[balto]

That is incorrect. Block universe cannot change since that requires a change in God’s knowledge which later is impossible for a changeless God.

I was trying to inject humor into the conversation, but it seems the attempt has failed .

Anyway, you’ve answered my question from the previous comment so I suppose I can respond. Why does a changing universe require that God’s knowledge of it changes? He knows the whole universe all at once. That’s what it means to be timeless.

I can know the entirety of a movie’s story all at once, but that doesn’t mean that internally there is no change within the movie.

 

[Bahman]

I guess we need to clarify terms. By “motion”, do you mean “change in place?”

By motion I mean that an object changes its position.

If so then modern relativity theory seems to confirm your thesis that motion is relative to an agent.

I don’t know whether relativity theory is hold in block universe. I have to think about it.

I think that is plausible. But I don’t see how it follows that motion is therefore unreal.

Motion is unreal in block universe. What happens is that we move only along time axis and experience changes.

Evidently it can cause real change in an agent’s relationship to other agents.

That is the issue related to this thread. In simple word how movement of different agent along time axis is synchronised. The block universe crash if the movement of different agents are not synchronized.

But if motion is not real it should have no causal influence over anything that is real.

That is true in block universe. There is no motion and there is no causality.

You opened the OP by stating that God is timeless and omniscient. Then you said that these facts about God demonstrate that the universe is a block universe, which demonstrates that motion is an illusion. I was asking how God being timeless and omniscient causes motion to be unreal.

God does not cause motion to be unreal. This is a property of block universe which is resulted from changeless and omniscient God.

 

[Bahman]

I was trying to inject humor into the conversation, but it seems the attempt has failed .

Anyway, you’ve answered my question from the previous comment so I suppose I can respond. Why does a changing universe require that God’s knowledge of it changes?

There is no change in block universe only. Our experiences are only subject to change depending on how fast we move along time axis.

He knows the whole universe all at once. That’s what it means to be timeless.

That is acceptable but this leads to block universe and we then have the issue that how the movement different agent along time axes is synchronized to such a great precision.

I can know the entirety of a movie’s story all at once, but that doesn’t mean that internally there is no change within the movie.

That is a good analogy. You can know all frame of a movie. You then decide to watch the movie with different speed and that only produce changes. In reality there is no change in each frame of the movie. This picture however doesn’t resolve the problem of block universe: how movement of different agents are synchronized?

 

[balto]

That is the issue related to this thread. In simple word how movement of different agent along time axis is synchronised. The block universe crash if the movement of different agents are not synchronized.

I’m still not understanding what the issue is. If I am riding a train going at 30 mph and you are standing still on the side of the road, and GEddie’s car goes by both of us at 60 mph, to me GEddie appears to be going at 30 mph and to you he appears to be going at 60 mph. Are you saying that the block universe falls apart because there is no objective fact of how fast the car is going? And God’s omniscience/timelessness requires that there be such an objective fact? Am I understanding you properly? If not can you be more specific?

Locomotion is a relational property. It only makes sense to speak of a position in space as being relative to another object. I don’t see what the difficulty is because the objective fact that God knows would be that GEddie is going 30 mph faster than balto and 60 mph faster than Bahman.

 

[Bahman]

I’m still not understanding what the issue is. If I am riding a train going at 30 mph and you are standing still on the side of the road, and GEddie’s car goes by both of us at 60 mph, to me GEddie appears to be going at 30 mph and to you he appears to be going at 60 mph. Are you saying that the block universe falls apart because there is no objective fact of how fast the car is going? And God’s omniscience/timelessness requires that there be such an objective fact? Am I understanding you properly? If not can you be more specific?

Locomotion is a relational property. It only makes sense to speak of a position in space as being relative to another object. I don’t see what the difficulty is because the objective fact that God knows would be that GEddie is going 30 mph faster than balto and 60 mph faster than Bahman.

In block universe we experience changes as we move along time axis. The problem is that all agents’ movement along time axis should be synchronized.

 

[balto]

In block universe we experience changes as we move along time axis. The problem is that all agents’ movement along time axis should be synchronized.

I think that talk of an objective “time axis” is already assuming too much. I am still not clear on what the difficulty is. Please use my car scenario above and explain how the agents are not synchronized and what the situation would be like if they were synchronized.

I assume that you have a reason for starting the thread, so it makes sense to you. But if this cannot be done I will have to respectfully bow out of the conversation because I am not clear on what the dilemma is.

 

[Bahman]

I think that talk of an objective “time axis” is already assuming too much. I am still not clear on what the difficulty is. Please use my car scenario above and explain how the agents are not synchronized and what the situation would be like if they were synchronized.

I assume that you have a reason for starting the thread, so it makes sense to you. But if this cannot be done I will have to respectfully bow out of the conversation because I am not clear on what the dilemma is.

There is no problem with one agent in block universe. The problem starts when you have at least two agents. There is however no reason to accept that the two agents move along time axis in the same way. This however means that they experience differently and cannot agree with what they experience. One of the agent that moves faster can go out of reach from another perspective. I hope that the problem is clear now.

 

[Vico]

God is in state of timeless. God is omniscient. This means that we are dealing with a block universe since all states of universe are known from God point of view. This means that motion is an illusion. We however experience changes. This means that changes can only be described in term of changing the perspective of agents. This however impossible since it requires that all agents are synchronised in what they experience.

There is only psychological time travel with this block universe.