Parish music director doing the music for a gay 'wedding'

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exnihilo said:
Isn’t it funny how in tolerant modern America and Europe you have to hide your true thoughts and convictions lest you suffer socially or financially. The religion of tolerance doesn’t seem to provide what it promises.
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The above statement also applies, to some degree, to those Catholics who disagree with the current Church position on gays and gay marriage, and there are quite a few.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
The above statement also applies, to some degree, to those Catholics who disagree with the current Church position on gays and gay marriage, and there are quite a few.
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What lack of tolerance do you see applied to such Catholics? What would be the preferred level of tolerance?
 
Rau said:
What lack of tolerance do you see applied to such Catholics? What would be the preferred level of tolerance?
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I was thinking of the “suffering socially” as there are quite a few people who would rush to point out your sin, mistake, etc. if you expressed a position in favor of the Catholic Church being more inclusive of gay people.

I am not suggesting a “preferred level of tolerance” as people who consider it a sin or think the Church should not or will not change its position are unlikely to change their minds. I am just noting that if people see something they decide is wrong/ sinful they are not going to be very “tolerant” of it.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I was thinking of the “suffering socially” as there are quite a few people who would rush to point out your sin, mistake, etc. if you expressed a position in favor of the Catholic Church being more inclusive of gay people.
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Sorry - who is the “suffering socially”? I know of no reason “to oppose inclusiveness of gay people” unless that’s a euphemism for accepting same sex sexual relationships as “good”. I mean - how should the Church respond to a person who persists in manifest grave sin yet wishes to approach communion? Or wishes the Church to solemnise their relationship? There are degrees of inclusiveness, from the automatically available to the impossible.
I am not suggesting a “preferred level of tolerance” as people who consider it a sin or think the Church should not or will not change its position are unlikely to change their minds. I am just noting that if people see something they decide is wrong/ sinful they are not going to be very “tolerant” of it.
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On the contrary, most people routinely “mind their own business”.
 
pnewton said:
If this actually ends up being the case (I am not convinced they are in the same situation), then by necessity parishes will no be able to use musicians that do such a business on the side.
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That would be great if the parish could afford to pay a living wage for full-time professional musicians, but they can’t.

If you want people serving the parish who are in* any* line of work that is subject to public accommodations laws, you have to live with the fact that certain things that the Catholic Church deems immoral have been deemed by the rest of the public to be protected. We live in the World, and we can’t change everything about how it is run that we might think appropriate.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
The above statement also applies, to some degree, to those Catholics who disagree with the current Church position on gays and gay marriage, and there are quite a few.
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We aren’t a denomination that teaches a moral code that is subject to debate. We do not have an authority structure in which leaders who are duty-bound to hold and hand on the teachings of the Church are selected by popular vote.

It is one thing to admit that you find some teaching or other difficult to accept. It is quite another to imply that the solution to this difficulty is to change the teachings. The Church is going to stand fast against a push in that direction, and it is right that she does. In past ages, we have had members willing to suffer martyrdom rather than give in to secular pressure to conform to the teachings of the World, instead. Being willing to suffer unjust fines or a change in profession is a small price to pay, in comparison.
 
So…any word on how the wedding went?

Did Joe and Ken show up for Mass today?
 
ItTakesAllKinds said:
In all charity, I think you need to spend more time working on minding your own business. I don’t see how this is your business in any way, shape, or form. The Church is pretty clear on her teachings about this. Worst case scenario, something sinful is happening. Are you the sin police? Where does that stop? Maybe the church custodian is cohabitating. Is that your business? Or what about the lector. Maybe he lied at work yesterday. Is that your business? Be happy that this gay couple wants to have a relationship with God. They aren’t killing anyone or taking the food out of a starving child 's mouth. If you are truly worried for their souls or the soul of the musician, then pray for them (and mind your own business).
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I haven’t read the whole thread, but this is serious business because the music person’s participation in a SSM ceremony causes scandal. By her participation, she is acknowledging the sin is OK.

This happened in DH’s family. They were Extraordinary Ministers who were heavily involved in a “Catholic” LQBTQ ministry that undermined the Catholic teachings. And they once told us that there were several parishioners that complained. Frankly, if I was in their parish, I would too.
 
ItTakesAllKinds said:
I guess this is a big reason I am no longer Catholic. Where does this sort of thing end? I stand by my original advice. Work on your own self, and don’t worry about what other people are doing. Your concerns, as you noted them, don’t seem to be at all rooted in concern for the souls of others. They are all about you, and how the actions of others affect you. There is nothing at all wrong with this concern. It is called self-preservation, and it is a necessary part of living. I just disagree that it should be done under the guise of religion.
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Can I recommend a book? “Who Am I To Judge” by Edward Sri explans relativism very clearly using great examples.
 
1990Domer said:
I haven’t read the whole thread, but this is serious business because the music person’s participation in a SSM ceremony causes scandal. By her participation, she is acknowledging the sin is OK.
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It depends on the laws in her state. If the public accommodation laws make it impossible to provide music for weddings generally without being willing to provide music for this particular sort of wedding, then the musician is in the same position as a landlord prevented by law from refusing to rent to someone who openly intends an immoral living situation. It is not the same as someone who has legal room to refuse service. We can’t take ourselves out of the world.
 
EasterJoy said:
It depends on the laws in her state. If the public accommodation laws make it impossible to provide music for weddings generally without being willing to provide music for this particular sort of wedding, then the musician is in the same position as a landlord prevented by law from refusing to rent to someone who openly intends an immoral living situation. It is not the same as someone who has legal room to refuse service. We can’t take ourselves out of the world.
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Even when someone is employed by the Church?
 
EasterJoy said:
It depends on the laws in her state. If the public accommodation laws make it impossible to provide music for weddings generally without being willing to provide music for this particular sort of wedding, then the musician is in the same position as a landlord prevented by law from refusing to rent to someone who openly intends an immoral living situation. It is not the same as someone who has legal room to refuse service. We can’t take ourselves out of the world.
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Gotcha! Yes, I overlooked that part.
 
EnglishTeacher said:
Even when someone is employed by the Church?
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Musicians aren’t the only parishioners bound by public accommodations laws. Unless a person is a full-time employee (and therefore more justly subject to confining conditions of employment), I don’t think the courts are going to let rank-and-file Catholics use moral litmus tests to avoid following public accommodations laws.

Even in the case of confining conditions of employment, a parish, school or archdiocese would practically have to restrict musicians employed full time to performing only at Catholic functions in order to not run afoul of the law.

By that, I’d mean only give permission to accept private jobs at Catholic churches, which in turn would have to be events sanctioned by someone with authority in the Church. The law is going to require that the discrimination is based on allowed venue, not the persons who may be served.
 
EasterJoy said:
We aren’t a denomination that teaches a moral code that is subject to debate. We do not have an authority structure in which leaders who are duty-bound to hold and hand on the teachings of the Church are selected by popular vote.

It is one thing to admit that you find some teaching or other difficult to accept. It is quite another to imply that the solution to this difficulty is to change the teachings. The Church is going to stand fast against a push in that direction, and it is right that she does. In past ages, we have had members willing to suffer martyrdom rather than give in to secular pressure to conform to the teachings of the World, instead. Being willing to suffer unjust fines or a change in profession is a small price to pay, in comparison.
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Thank you for illustrating my point.
 
A clarifying question to the OP: are you absolutely certain that “Joe” is male and this isn’t a nickname for Joanna or something similar?
 
gracepoole said:
A clarifying question to the OP: are you absolutely certain that “Joe” is male and this isn’t a nickname for Joanna or something similar?
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Yes, I know the two gentlemen to whom she was referring. Also, Joe and Ken aren’t their real names; I changed them to protect privacy. 🙂
 
TechieGuy said:
So…any word on how the wedding went?

Did Joe and Ken show up for Mass today?
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I don’t have too much to tell at this point. I haven’t seen the music director since then, although I think I will talk with her about it when I see her again.

I talked to one of our priests about it as well, but I am not sure whether he was going to do anything or not.

Joe and Ken usually go to a different Mass time than what I attend; I have not seen them.
 
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