Pastoral Provision Decision

[gnome]

Does anyone think this Decision is double standard? While we try to promote priesthood vocation to the youths at our parish as a life of celibacy, totally dedicated to serving the Church, this
exceptional Decision certainly raise question in their mind the meaning of mandatory celibacy. It is sad reading about Priests (Milwaukee) and Bishop (Australia) demanding a change…, but now I understand even the Church is not firm on this issue. Why does the Church in a way indicate acceptance of, or honor, priesthood that was not ordained thru Apostolic Succession??

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1313966/posts

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

gnome:

Does anyone think this Decision is double standard? While we try to promote priesthood vocation to the youths at our parish as a life of celibacy, totally dedicated to serving the Church, this
exceptional Decision certainly raise question in their mind the meaning of mandatory celibacy. It is sad reading about Priests (Milwaukee) and Bishop (Australia) demanding a change…, but now I understand even the Church is not firm on this issue. Why does the Church in a way indicate acceptance of, or honor, priesthood that was not ordained thru Apostolic Succession??

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1313966/posts

Mandatory celibacy is a discipline within the Church and it can, and has, changed.

Yes, the Latin Catholic Church has mandatory celibacy for its priests but the eparchial (or diocesean) priesthood within the Byzantine Churches doesn’t have this discipline. A married man is eligible for the priesthood in the Byzantine Churches.

We must remember that this is just a discipline and not a dogma.

 

[gnome]

ByzCath:

Mandatory celibacy is a discipline within the Church and it can, and has, changed.

Yes, the Latin Catholic Church has mandatory celibacy for its priests but the eparchial (or diocesean) priesthood within the Byzantine Churches doesn’t have this discipline. A married man is eligible for the priesthood in the Byzantine Churches.

We must remember that this is just a discipline and not a dogma.

then regarding all male priesthood, which category does it belong to?

 

[gnome]

I think I understand what Dogma is, but may be I don’t…:

= =
In his book The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott distinguishes between the level of certainty a Catholic may have towards any teaching of the Catholic Church (p.9-10). I have provided an example of each immediately following his description: De Fide - The highest degree of certainty appertains to immediately revealed truths, due on the Authority of God revealing. If these truths are solemnly defined by the Magisterium, they are “de defide definita”. (Example: The Dogma of the Trinity)

Fides Ecclesiastica - Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiatica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper. (Example: Anglican Order are invalid.)

Sententia Ad Fidem Pertinens - A teaching pertaining to the Faith is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions). (Example: An all male priesthood. Some may disagree and suggest that *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis * is an infallible pronouncement on this issue.)

Sententia Fidei Proxima - A teaching proximate to Faith is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church. (Example: Mary as Co-Mediaterix)

Sententia Communis - Common teaching is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally. (Example: Christ’s soul possessed infused knowledge.)

Sententia Probabablis - Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded. Those which are regarded as being in a agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainity is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata), which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church. (Example: Rigorist (strict) view of “No Salvation Outside the Church”, or the existence of Limbo.)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

gnome:

then regarding all male priesthood, which category does it belong to?

The all male priesthood falls under dogma.

But the pastoral provision does not extend Holy Orders to any but men so I really do not understand this question.

 

[kmktexas]

Why does the Church in a way indicate acceptance of, or honor, priesthood that was not ordained thru Apostolic Succession??

I don’t think that this is what is happening. With the Pastoral Provision, the Episcopal priest first converts, goes through formation (which is often abreviated since many of the courses have already been covered) and then is ordained a Catholic priest. The Catholic Church accepts the person but not thier ordination which was (except in a few very rare cases) not thru Apostolic succession.

then regarding all male priesthood, which category does it belong to?

Try the Pope’s apostolic letter Ordinatio sacerdotalis and the thread here at CAF on the same.

 

[gnome]

kmktexas:

I don’t think that this is what is happening. With the Pastoral Provision, the Episcopal priest first converts, goes through formation (which is often abreviated since many of the courses have already been covered) and then is ordained a Catholic priest. The Catholic Church accepts the person but not thier ordination which was (except in a few very rare cases) not thru Apostolic succession.

well if that is the case, no special consideration. However, we know the above process can’t be applied to other lay married Catholics ( or non Catholics)…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

gnome:

well if that is the case, no special consideration. However, we know the above process can’t be applied to other lay married Catholics ( or non Catholics)…

No, we know that the process can’t be applied to other lay married Latin (or Roman) Cahtolics.

Other non-Catholics there were “clergy” in their protestant denomination have been ordained priests in the Latin Church. I know of at least one Lutherian who is married with children that is now a Latin Catholic priest.

As for byzantine Catholics, they can and have been ordained after they have been married. The Ukrianian Greek Catholic Church has done this as have the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. The Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church is a bit behind but we do have two married men in the seminary right now studying for the priesthood.

 

[kmktexas]

gnome:

well if that is the case, no special consideration. However, we know the above process can’t be applied to other lay married Catholics ( or non Catholics)…

Not presently, but there are analogous situation in the Church. For example, a Deacon can be ordained if he is married but, if widowed, cannot remarry. This is a discipline, not a doctrine. In extenuating circumstances, the deacon can receive permission to remarry (ie small children at home). Not a perfect analogy but both are instances of the Church working within a discipline to accomodate unusual circumstances.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

kmktexas:

Not presently, but there are analogous situation in the Church. For example, a Deacon can be ordained if he is married but, if widowed, cannot remarry. This is a discipline, not a doctrine. In extenuating circumstances, the deacon can receive permission to remarry (ie small children at home). Not a perfect analogy but both are instances of the Church working within a discipline to accomodate unusual circumstances.

Allowing a deacon to remarry is not really an example of the Church working within a discipline to accomodate unusual circumstances becuase the issue of now allowing those in Holy Orders to marry is really a dogma. The discipline is whether or not to allow a married man to be ordained into Holy Orders.

This example, of allowing a deacon with young children to remarry, is more of an example of pastoral care, or as the Orthodox call it oekonomia.

 

[kmktexas]

ByzCath:

Allowing a deacon to remarry is not really an example of the Church working within a discipline to accomodate unusual circumstances becuase the issue of now allowing those in Holy Orders to marry is really a dogma. The discipline is whether or not to allow a married man to be ordained into Holy Orders.

ok, now I’m intrigued. I had always been taught that the celibacy of the ordained was a discipline not a doctrine. Do you have a reference? I obviously need to learn more.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

kmktexas:

ok, now I’m intrigued. I had always been taught that the celibacy of the ordained was a discipline not a doctrine. Do you have a reference? I obviously need to learn more.

Celibacy of the ordained is a discipline. That is the ordaination of a married man to Holy Orders is a discipline. The Latin Church says no, the Byzantine Churches say yes.

The marrying of a man who is already ordained to Holy Orders is not discipline. Priests and Deacons can not marry after ordination.

Now for deacons and priests, who were married before ordination where their wife has died and they have young children, the pope has allowed them to remarry in some cases. These cases are very few and for the priests I do not think has happened any time recently. This is done for pastoral reasons. Only the Holy Father can grant this.

 

[kmktexas]

Dave,

I understand what you are saying. I have just never heard it that way before and wanted a reference so that I could read up on it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

kmktexas:

Dave,

I understand what you are saying. I have just never heard it that way before and wanted a reference so that I could read up on it.

Ah, I see…

How is this…

From the Catechism

1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate “for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to “the affairs of the Lord,” they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church’s minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.

1580 In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities. Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.