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Gmsod
Guest
Yes, i agree. Knowing the canon and ecclesial laws is neccesssry before converting. My confusion was with the phrasing of it. I read it as if i just choose whatever i felt more inclined to.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
The very process of discernment is determining what one is included to follow. Indeed, knowing more, rather than less, is quite helpful.
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Spyridon
Guest
The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are not two rival Churches.
The Catholic Church refers specifically to the Communion of 24 particular Churches (the Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches) which are in full Communion with the Pope of Rome.
However, there are other particular Churches which are part of the One Church, and which are also Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. However, these Churches are in a state of strained, imperfect Communion with the Holy See and the other Catholic Churches.
The other particular Churches which are part of the Catholic Church, but not in full Communion with the Catholic Church, identify themselves as the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches. There are 14 of these Greco-Slavic Churches which mainly use the Byzantine Rite.
There are also 6 other particular Churches not in full Communion with the rest of the Church, called the Oriental Orthodox Catholic Churches. These are some Afro-Asiatic Churches which did not get treated fairly back in the mid-5th century, and so left full communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.
Finally, there is 1 last particular Church of the East which is not in full Communion but is technically a true Church and therefore part of the Catholic Church, and that is the Assyrian Church of the East.
So, these 21 individual particular Eastern Churches - which are not all in Communion with each other - are all part of the Catholic Church by virtue of their valid Orders, valid Sacraments, valid Rites, holiness, apostolicity, antiquity, and other things.
So, if you are at this momenet, say, a Protestant or an atheist, joining any of these particular Churches will open the doors to you which were not open before - particular the riches of Apostolic Tradition and the Sacraments.
Now obviously, I am a Roman Rite Catholic, so I would suggest you come to one of the Catholic Churches. But, if you feel called to one of the Orthodox Churches, I wouldn’t stop you - with the caveat that you remember to love and respect your fellow Christians in the Catholic Church, and not fall in with the internet-orthodox culture which is sickeningly anti-Catholic.
The Catholic Church refers specifically to the Communion of 24 particular Churches (the Latin Church and 23 Eastern Catholic Churches) which are in full Communion with the Pope of Rome.
However, there are other particular Churches which are part of the One Church, and which are also Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. However, these Churches are in a state of strained, imperfect Communion with the Holy See and the other Catholic Churches.
The other particular Churches which are part of the Catholic Church, but not in full Communion with the Catholic Church, identify themselves as the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Churches. There are 14 of these Greco-Slavic Churches which mainly use the Byzantine Rite.
There are also 6 other particular Churches not in full Communion with the rest of the Church, called the Oriental Orthodox Catholic Churches. These are some Afro-Asiatic Churches which did not get treated fairly back in the mid-5th century, and so left full communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.
Finally, there is 1 last particular Church of the East which is not in full Communion but is technically a true Church and therefore part of the Catholic Church, and that is the Assyrian Church of the East.
So, these 21 individual particular Eastern Churches - which are not all in Communion with each other - are all part of the Catholic Church by virtue of their valid Orders, valid Sacraments, valid Rites, holiness, apostolicity, antiquity, and other things.
So, if you are at this momenet, say, a Protestant or an atheist, joining any of these particular Churches will open the doors to you which were not open before - particular the riches of Apostolic Tradition and the Sacraments.
Now obviously, I am a Roman Rite Catholic, so I would suggest you come to one of the Catholic Churches. But, if you feel called to one of the Orthodox Churches, I wouldn’t stop you - with the caveat that you remember to love and respect your fellow Christians in the Catholic Church, and not fall in with the internet-orthodox culture which is sickeningly anti-Catholic.
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Gmsod
Guest
Thank you for the educational post. I am curious, however, what you mean when you say “feel called to”. The Catholic Church teach that only the Roman Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, so if it is true (which is what I’m trying to figure out) then that is the one i should be in. I want to find out which church (even if they are all technically part of the church) has the fullness of truth. Thank you very much for the post
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Spyridon
Guest
The Catholic Church does have the fullness of Truth, and I recommend you find a Catholic Church in your area.The Catholic Church teach that only the Roman Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, so if it is true (which is what I’m trying to figure out) then that is the one i should be in. I want to find out which church (even if they are all technically part of the church) has the fullness of truth. Thank you very much for the post
What I meant by “feel called” was if you feel called to the Eastern spiritual and liturgical traditions, and if you find a nice Eastern Orthodox parish where you feel at home.
Preferably if this was the case, you’d find an Eastern Catholic Uniate Church to be a part of. But Uniate Eastern parishes are not as widespread as Disuniate Eastern Orthodox parishes.
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Gmsod
Guest
Yeah i attend a catholic parish near me and there is a Greek Orthodox not too far away. If i felt called to the eastern liturgy and worship but also Catholicism then i would just try to find a Tridentine mass nearby or just continue going to the novus ordo.
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Spyridon
Guest
I spent 9 months as a Russian Orthodox catechumen.
I can assure you the Catholic Church is where the Fullness of Truth resides, and I can give you resources defending Catholic doctrines like the Papacy, the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception, use of unleavened Communion bread, etc.
And if you felt called to the Eastern liturgy and spirituality, if you could find an Eastern Catholic parish to go to, that would be ideal.
I can assure you the Catholic Church is where the Fullness of Truth resides, and I can give you resources defending Catholic doctrines like the Papacy, the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception, use of unleavened Communion bread, etc.
And if you felt called to the Eastern liturgy and spirituality, if you could find an Eastern Catholic parish to go to, that would be ideal.
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Gmsod
Guest
ROCOR or do you not live in America?
Also, anything you have regarding the papacy that helped you i would love to read. If you have any suggestions please let me know. Thanks
Also, anything you have regarding the papacy that helped you i would love to read. If you have any suggestions please let me know. Thanks
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Spyridon
Guest
It was a ROCOR parish. I still drop in there occasionally to say hi, venerate the icons, etc. I plan on attending Vespers and the Divine Liturgy there sometime this spring too, because I love the way they celebrate the Liturgy there.
Here’s a good general resource: https://east2west.org
And here’s a good, more in depth resource, especially for defending the Papacy: http://www.catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_bishop_of_rome_primacy.php
http://www.catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_orthodox_church_fathers.php
Catholicbridge is an especially good resource.
Here’s some quotes from early Eastern Church Fathers about the papacy. Ask yourself - do these quotes align with the Catholic understanding of the Papacy?
“How much more in the case of the clergy and church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter & Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate …even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the Popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.”
St. Maximus the Confessor, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10
“Because of his primacy, the Pontiff of Rome is not required to attend an Ecumenical Council; but without his participation, manifested by sending some subordinates, every Ecumenical Council is as non-existant, for it is he who presides over the Council.”
St. Methodius —N. Brian-Chaninov, The Russian Church (1931), 46; cited by Butler, Church and Infallibility, 210) (Upon This Rock (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1999), p. 177).
“It is not true, as this Canon states, that the holy Fathers gave the primacy to old Rome because it was the capital of the Empire; it is from on high, from divine grace, that this primacy drew its origin. Because of the intensity of his faith Peter, the first of the Apostles, was addressed in these words by our Lord Jesus Christ himself ‘Peter, lovest thou me? Feed my sheep’. That is why in hierarchical order Rome holds the pre-eminent place and is the first See. That is why the leges of old Rome are eternally immovable, and that is the view of all the Churches” (Ibid)
Here’s a good general resource: https://east2west.org
And here’s a good, more in depth resource, especially for defending the Papacy: http://www.catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_bishop_of_rome_primacy.php
http://www.catholicbridge.com/orthodox/pope_orthodox_church_fathers.php
Catholicbridge is an especially good resource.
Here’s some quotes from early Eastern Church Fathers about the papacy. Ask yourself - do these quotes align with the Catholic understanding of the Papacy?
“How much more in the case of the clergy and church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter & Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate …even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the Popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.”
St. Maximus the Confessor, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10
“Because of his primacy, the Pontiff of Rome is not required to attend an Ecumenical Council; but without his participation, manifested by sending some subordinates, every Ecumenical Council is as non-existant, for it is he who presides over the Council.”
St. Methodius —N. Brian-Chaninov, The Russian Church (1931), 46; cited by Butler, Church and Infallibility, 210) (Upon This Rock (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1999), p. 177).
“It is not true, as this Canon states, that the holy Fathers gave the primacy to old Rome because it was the capital of the Empire; it is from on high, from divine grace, that this primacy drew its origin. Because of the intensity of his faith Peter, the first of the Apostles, was addressed in these words by our Lord Jesus Christ himself ‘Peter, lovest thou me? Feed my sheep’. That is why in hierarchical order Rome holds the pre-eminent place and is the first See. That is why the leges of old Rome are eternally immovable, and that is the view of all the Churches” (Ibid)
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Spyridon
Guest
"Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope’s) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul … I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. "
St. Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation …the new heresy. "(Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council]
, Mansi, 893)
https://www.fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html
St. Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
"Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation …the new heresy. "(Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council]
, Mansi, 893)
https://www.fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html
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Gmsod
Guest
Thanks for the resources! I have seen many times that Leo and Maximus certainly viewed themselves in a modern papal sense. I am just having trouble seeing the church as a whole regarding the pope that way.
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Spyridon
Guest
Check out the resources I listed.
The Western Fathers from the 1st millenium certainly viewed the See of Rome the way the Catholic Church does today.
And there are comments and witnesses from literally dozens of Eastern Fathers, as well as Ecumenical Councils which took place in the East that saw the Pope as the CC does today.
The word Ecumenical connotes “universal” or “worldwide.” So when an Ecumenical Council speaks, it’s the voice of the entire Church.
Here’s some of what 1st millenium Ecumenical Councils said of the Papacy and See of Rome:
In the Acts of the Council of Ephesus, session 3, a council which was presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria, the Roman deacon Philip declared -
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the Keys of the Kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins; who down even to this day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.”
Likewise, the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, which was composed mainly of 600 Eastern Bishops, says in writing to St. Pope Leo the Great:
“For if ‘where two or three are gathered together in His name’ He has said that 'there He is in the midst of them,” must He not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests, who preferred the spread of knowledge concerning Him …Of whom you were Chief, as Head to the members, showing your good will." —Chalcedon to Pope Leo (Repletum est Gaudio), November 451.
“You are set as an interpreter to all of the voice of blessed Peter, and to all you impart the blessings of that Faith.” —Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98
“Besides all this, he extended his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Savior. We refer to Your Holiness.” —Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
“You have often extended your Apostolic radiance even to the Church of Constantinople.” --Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
“Knowing that every success of the children rebounds to the parents, we therefore beg you to honor our decision by your assent, and as we have yielded agreement to the Head in noble things, so may the Head also fulfill what is fitting for the children.” --Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
The Western Fathers from the 1st millenium certainly viewed the See of Rome the way the Catholic Church does today.
And there are comments and witnesses from literally dozens of Eastern Fathers, as well as Ecumenical Councils which took place in the East that saw the Pope as the CC does today.
The word Ecumenical connotes “universal” or “worldwide.” So when an Ecumenical Council speaks, it’s the voice of the entire Church.
Here’s some of what 1st millenium Ecumenical Councils said of the Papacy and See of Rome:
In the Acts of the Council of Ephesus, session 3, a council which was presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria, the Roman deacon Philip declared -
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the Keys of the Kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins; who down even to this day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place.”
Likewise, the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, which was composed mainly of 600 Eastern Bishops, says in writing to St. Pope Leo the Great:
“For if ‘where two or three are gathered together in His name’ He has said that 'there He is in the midst of them,” must He not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests, who preferred the spread of knowledge concerning Him …Of whom you were Chief, as Head to the members, showing your good will." —Chalcedon to Pope Leo (Repletum est Gaudio), November 451.
“You are set as an interpreter to all of the voice of blessed Peter, and to all you impart the blessings of that Faith.” —Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98
“Besides all this, he extended his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Savior. We refer to Your Holiness.” —Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
“You have often extended your Apostolic radiance even to the Church of Constantinople.” --Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
“Knowing that every success of the children rebounds to the parents, we therefore beg you to honor our decision by your assent, and as we have yielded agreement to the Head in noble things, so may the Head also fulfill what is fitting for the children.” --Chalcedon to Pope Leo, Ep. 98.
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