Paul superior to Peter?

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“Protestantism was the triumph of Paul over Peter, fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ.” - Will Durant
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Has anyone noticed how, since the Reformation, St. Peter’s role has been seriously downplayed in favor of St. Paul’s? I mean, I was hearing a sermon recently from a non-Catholic about how Paul didn’t need to be ordained by anyone but God Himself, how Paul rebuked Peter and a bunch of other church leaders for hypocrisy, how Paul was the leader of the church, Paul this, Paul that, and Peter becomes weak in faith like a pebble. What’s up with that? Paul wasn’t even in the gospels and never actually lived with Jesus.
 
I just think St. Paul spoke up more. I wouldn’t say that Paul “rebuking” Peter meant that Peter was less of a leader. Perhaps Peter was a little more reserved and Paul was just more of the preaching type…“there are many parts, we are all one body”

Peter may have even had to correct Paul many times…but I doubt Paul would write about it. Think of it this way, if you won a debate, you would probably be happy and tell your friends, if you lost, you are not very likely to tell them because it may be a little embarassing…just becaue they are saints, doesn’t mean they always took things the best way, or didn’t make mistakes.
Paul may have been a better preacher, and Peter a better leader (which is why he was Pope)…Personally, My boss is not always right about things we tell him, but I know that he has much better leadership qualities than I do while I know more about the job…we have to work as a team. Perhaps Jesus chose Peter simply because of certain traits he has that Paul didn’t have but could make up for elsewhere.

Perhaps a lot of Protestants fail to realize this because they don’t see what St. Peter was all about. Paul wrote more and it was put in the Bible…Peter was busy doing other things.
I wonder if they ever stop to ask themselves why Paul was even arguing with Peter in the first place and why it was so important to write how Paul won the “debate”…couldn’t Paul have just gone to another Apostle?..well, he (Paul) didn’t…doesn’t this illustrate to them that Peter was in some sort of position of authority?
 
In any corporation you have a CEO and managers underneath. The lower level managers are the ones that spend most of the time taking upper managements goals and finding ways to execute them. Many lower level managers also come up with many ideas on their own. These managers are the ones who talk to the employees and define these broad goals that the CEO or presidents set up. These managers are supposed to get their hands dirty and help get production and results from the employees.

Now think of the Church. If Peter was the leader he would teach the basic truths of the Church. However, he would not be able to go everywhere and deal with the problems the early Churches dealt with. That is where Paul comes in. Paul was like lower management. He is still respected and is extremely important. His job is to go to the people and help them learn them learn what God’s message is. They already know the basic plan as it has been outlined by the leader Peter. However, the faithful need a more difinitive plan to comprehend and understand what the Church teaches. Paul starts this plan by teaching that we cannot earn salvation. Our salvation is a gift and that gift is accepted by faith. Paul explains that the first fundamental foundation for Christianity is faith.

However, it does not stop at just merely believing. For true faith is naturally expressed through our works. For like James says, “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.” (James 2:17) We must understand that Paul was dealing with Christians who’s faith was wandering. Paul realized that the first step to helping these people understand was to build faith. Once a sturdy foundation of faith is built everything else can be built on top. For a weak foundation will crumble in time.

Remember, Peter warns of the difficulty of understanding some of Paul’s teachings. He also states that many will misinterpret this scripture along with other as well.

2Peter3:15-17
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

That’s just my :twocents: , but I believe that is why Paul deals with the problems the early Churches of the Bible face.
 
I think Paul’s role has been seriously overstated in modern times. He seems to be the easiest to misunderstand. At bookstores there are works on how Paul was actually the “leader of the christian church” and Peter and James were his enemies. It’s pretty goofy. But this is real stuff being pushed on people interested in christian history. Its made up by people who don’t like christianity and they need an evil genius to blame their discontent on. Paul was a controvertial figure in his own day. Alot of people in the earliest days didn’t accept him as an apostle. He had to justify his position by noting that he had met with Peter and the others of the “first generation” and that he preached the same gospel as they did. I find it interesting that He never actually held any formal office, that I know of. Peter and Paul preached and founded churches in the same areas, as were other mysterious missionaries whose names have been lost to history. Paul has the honor of being the last biblical apostle called by Christ himself. He has gotten so much recognition because of the overwhelming number of letters we have of his in relation to other chuch founders.But the first Pope? Surely you jest. I like to play a game called “compare what Paul says with what the other books of the New Testament say” and “compare Paul with contemporary Judaism of the time”. Paul comes out sounding Catholic to me.
Someday Debo will have some bible verses to compare.
 
coming from a protestant background, i can tell you that paul agrees with protestant theology much more readily than does peter, james, or even Jesus.

you find all kinds of verses that seem to say that works of any kind are unnecessary and that faith alone saves you in paul’s writings. in fact, protestants (baptists in particular) have a plan of salvation called ‘the roman road’ in which you take a series of 5 to 7 verses from the book of romans and lead someone to say ‘the sinner’s prayer’, in which a person confesses their sins (basically confesses THAT they have sinned) and that they want Jesus to save them. they ‘ask Jesus into their heart’ and are saved. the end. congrats. from here on out, it’s just learning to be more like Jesus.

james says ‘for you see that you are justified by what you do, and not by faith alone.’ so you can see why some people who misinterpret paul to be sola fides, would think that james and paul were enemies.

protestantism must, by necessity, lean toward paul for one very simple reason - sola scriptura. much of what peter taught was carried on through the church, whereas paul wrote much of the new testament, almost all of the epistles. so anyone who rejects the Tradition of the church (a great portion of peter’s teachings) and embraces only the Bible as an authority (largely paul’s teachings) will lean toward paul as their ‘father’.
 
When Paul wanted to make sure he wasn’t running or had run in vain he went to James, Cephas (Peter), and John and laid the Gospel he was preaching before them for their confirmation (Gal 2:1-10).
 
I am waiting for the reply by the guy who thinks Paul is a heretic and his letters are non-canonical.

This story was told by an Episcopal bishop to a mixed group of students from all faiths, it is a Lutheran joke.
A good Lutheran dies and expects to be welcomed at the pearly gates, but is shocked and surprised to find himself going in the other door down below. The first person he meets is his pastor. “What happened,” he asked, “why are we here? We have strong saving faith, we should be saved!”
“If you think that’s crazy, wait until you see who else is down here,” the pastor replied, and led the man over to where Martin Luther was standing. The pastor asked the great reformer why they were consigned to the nether regions, and Luther replied,
“You think that’s crazy, you won’t believe who else is down here,” and led them further in and further down, to where St. Paul was wandering around, muttering wildly “It was works, it was works!”
 
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asquared:
I am waiting for the reply by the guy who thinks Paul is a heretic and his letters are non-canonical.

This story was told by an Episcopal bishop to a mixed group of students from all faiths, it is a Lutheran joke.
A good Lutheran dies and expects to be welcomed at the pearly gates, but is shocked and surprised to find himself going in the other door down below. The first person he meets is his pastor. “What happened,” he asked, “why are we here? We have strong saving faith, we should be saved!”
“If you think that’s crazy, wait until you see who else is down here,” the pastor replied, and led the man over to where Martin Luther was standing. The pastor asked the great reformer why they were consigned to the nether regions, and Luther replied,
“You think that’s crazy, you won’t believe who else is down here,” and led them further in and further down, to where St. Paul was wandering around, muttering wildly “It was works, it was works!”
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I thought the joke would go this way :

because “peter” was the one holding “the key”, and later he “forgot” where he kept it… then all of us got stuck in front of the “gate”…
 
St. Paul is only a bigger deal than St. Peter OUTSIDE of Catholic circles. Since this is a Catholic forum, most of us submit to the chair of Peter, not the chair of Paul.
 
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Apologia100:
St. Paul is only a bigger deal than St. Peter OUTSIDE of Catholic circles. Since this is a Catholic forum, most of us submit to the chair of Peter, not the chair of Paul.
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Are you saying that Catholic circles “prefer” Peter’s teachings over Paul’s ?

I’m affraid that is not the case.

Luther’s criticism was not totally baseless. We just have to deal with it with open mind. Vatican Council II lead us in this area : that there are new revelations happening in The Church, that The Church should remain open to the Holy Spirit guidance to bring continual renewal to The Church. We trust God in this area and trust our leaders in the Council who understand these things better than us.

Some opposition of the Council makes a lot of noise, being totally “ignorant” of the Bible, they shout “ignorace” the loudest.
 
Since those of St. Paul’s and St. Peter’s writings that are considered inspired are included in the canon of Scripture, both St. Peter and St. Paul’s teachings are equally important. I am saying that in the Catholic worldview, St. Peter was the chief apostle, not St. Paul, and Paul himself submitted to Peter. Just because Paul “rebuked” Peter for his inconsistent behavior, it does not mean that Paul was superior to Peter, nor does it diminish Peter’s role as the Chief Apostle. Good leaders always listen to the adminishments of other people, because any man that assumes he knows it all will soon find out that he doesn’t.
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francisca:
Are you saying that Catholic circles “prefer” Peter’s teachings over Paul’s ?

I’m affraid that is not the case.

Luther’s criticism was not totally baseless. We just have to deal with it with open mind. Vatican Council II lead us in this area : that there are new revelations happening in The Church, that The Church should remain open to the Holy Spirit guidance to bring continual renewal to The Church. We trust God in this area and trust our leaders in the Council who understand these things better than us.

Some opposition of the Council makes a lot of noise, being totally “ignorant” of the Bible, they shout “ignorace” the loudest.
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Protestants have a vested interest in downplaying the role of Peter (no kidding?). Whenever I am confronted with a Paul-over-Peter argument, I cite Galatians 2:

[2] I [Paul] went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. . . . and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles . . .6] And . . . those who were . . . of repute added nothing to me; 7] but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8] (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles),
9] and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, **James and Cephas and John, **who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; (RSV)

In other words, Paul, who was not shy to “oppose Peter to his face,” nevertheless boasted in the Epistle to the Galatians that Cephas, James and John – “those of repute” in Jerusalem – had affirmed his gospel and given him “the right hand of fellowship” . . . to preach the good news to the Gentiles.
 
The better question would be, “Do Protestants believe St. Paul to be superior to Jesus?”

A Protestant once asked me, “Are you saved?”. I turned and asked, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?” He came up with an answer that is not in the bible. “Accept Jesus as your personal saviour.” I responded, “No! What is the perfect answer to this question? What was Jesus answer to this question?”

NAB MAR 10:17

As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?” Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:
’You shall not kill;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
You shall not defraud;
Honor your father and your mother.’"

The Protestant told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed, he told me. “How can you teach opposite or anti-Christ’s teachings which He commanded us to believe?”, I asked.

Catholics “believe” in Jesus by puting into practice what He told us to do. Protestants do not base their faith on Jesus teaching but on what they misunderstand St. Paul to say. They do not “believe” in what Jesus taught.

The Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on Justification portrays the Protestant thought of throwing out what Jesus taught as the path to salvation for misunderstandings of St. Pauls writings. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least ten to one over Jesus. What? did Jesus not have anything to say as to how to go to heaven.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
I think that Paul would be horrified beyond comprehension if he knew people 1500 years+ later were going to take his letters and make him sound like a jerk. Maybe he does know. I think there is a fascination with this mysterious apostle. But don’t worry, in recent times James the Lord’s Brother has gotten a new recognition. Against Paul! Now, according to some, James and Paul had differnt churches, and (wouldn’t you know it?) Paul’s survived and James’ died out. Where’s Peter in all this? I don’t know. Where’s John and the other apostles? I don’t know. Apparently they didn’t do anything important.
This whole overemphasis on the first chuch leaders giving them positions they didn’t have is driving me nutz. Reading key verses of Paul’s letters sound alot like the other books of the N.T. to me. Paul didn’t live in a vaccum like some of the critics do.
I don’t think most Protestants think Paul is better than Peter or the others. Just,that he spread the message the furthest(did he? I don’t know) and most books of the New Testament are his.
Hey, I have a question. Are some of the churches Paul founded still around today? Let’s ask them what they think of him and Peter. Debo is what Debo does.
 
Steven Merten:
The better question would be, “Do Protestants believe St. Paul to be superior to Jesus?”

The Protestant told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul’s post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ’s teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul’s “faith only” is needed, he told me. “How can you teach opposite or anti-Christ’s teachings which He commanded us to believe?”, I asked.

The Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on Justification portrays the Protestant thought of throwing out what Jesus taught as the path to salvation for misunderstandings of St. Pauls writings. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least ten to one over Jesus. What? did Jesus not have anything to say as to how to go to heaven.
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It is interesting that in extreme Protestant dispensationalist circles, some believe that Jesus and his teachings (i.e. the Gospels) do not apply to Christians, but only to those Jews who heard Jesus and, eventually, to those Jews who will accept Christ after the “Rapture” (ditto for the OT). They consider themselves bound only by the writings of Paul (and the book of Revelation). This is the ultimate in the exaltation of Paul over Jesus. It also has the handy by-product of avoiding the distinctively Catholic nature of Jesus’ teaching, such as Matthew 24:31-46.
 
I’m not liking the terminology of “Paul over Jesus.” It’s the Protestant’s twisting of Paul’s language over every single thing Jesus every said. Not to mention every other thing Paul ever said. It just seems like they take a few verses and read them totally out of context. Then the rest of the bible is thrown out as less important. I think this is probably a pretty minority view. Can I use that as an adjective?
 
Any attempt to “belittle” Paul’s teaching will only show that one does not really care about “submission” nor “The Truth” anymore. One might even goes as far as nullifying the Word of God to secure denominational pride. If this is the case, it’s very unfortunate.

About works and faith Paul wrote :

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who WORKS, his wage is NOT credited as A FAVOR, but as WHAT IS DUE . But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

If one is doing good works all the time, he does not need God to forgive him. And if he can do all the works all by himself, surely God will reward/ judge him according to his works. But this is not about having FAITH in God’s MERCY.

God’s chosen people are those who have FAITH in Him, and because of this, they receive undeserved favor . This undeserved favor is what we call God’s grace that frees us from PUNISHMENTS of sins such as lusts, sicknesses, bad habits, etc those things cause one feel as if he has “no hope” (condemn/ punish himself in his heart) but actually he has abundant hope in Jesus. He is only “deceived” by sins. Sin’s witnesses are false witnesses. Our Sin is nothing but lies (although it looks real, but those are not of the highest truth ! ). So what is the truth then? The truth is this : That Jesus has died for us so that we can be free from our sins. Anyone say this is THE TRUE WITNESS OF TRUTH. But if you don’t belief this highest truth, and hold on to Sin’s witnesses in your life, then surely you have no hope and you will perish together the lies that you believe all the time

God who is faithful has bestowed on each of us this Grace of MERCY that we have to hold on fast : that Jesus has died for “my” sins.

Jesus said this : " I AM the the way, the truth, and the life, no one can come to The Father except through Me". This means : anything outside Jesus are not the truth, it has no way out, and definitely not alive.

If one denies FAITH that SAVES then he is no longer Jesus’ follower. Because this teaching is not Paul’s teaching but Jesus’ who said “Your faith have saved you” & “Let it happen according to your Faith” all over the Gospel books.

Matthew 9:2
And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their FAITH, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your FAITH has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little FAITH, why did you doubt?”

Matthew 15:28

Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your FAITH is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

And He said this precisely when He healed the sick and did miracles. One have to deny Jesus’ teaching to deny the SAVING FAITH teachings. Because of this FAITH the Kingdom of God be present among us even from the present time when we are still in the world.

Luke 11:20
But if it is by the finger of God that (I) drive out demons, then THE KINGDOM of God HAS COME upon you.

Luke 9:2
And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform HEALING.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like CHILDREN, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

May God blesses us all.
 
**The Jesus vs. St. Paul debate. **

The misunderstanding is that St. Paul is debating the law of circumcision and not the Law of God’s commandments. St. Peter warns us to be very careful when reading St. Paul’s writings. Martin Luther and the Protestants stumble right past St. Peter’s warnings to base the foundation of the Protestant faith on their misunderstandings of St. Paul’s writings.

St. Paul says,

Galatians 2:16
…who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Jesus says,

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

St. Paul’s writings were debating the law of circumcision and the Pharisee created Church laws and not God’s Law of the commandments.

NAB ACT 15:1
Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” NAB PHI 3:5

(St. Paul is speaking.)
I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. (GAL 6:13)NAB 1CO 7:19

(St. Paul is speaking.)
Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. **What matters is keeping God’s commandments.**NAB ROM 2:13

(St. Paul is speaking.)
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just.

NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.

Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.

****Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
I have always loved St. Peter but in my later years and many conversions, I have found I pray to St. Peter to be a rock, but pray to St. Paul to be a zealous apostle for Christ. Perhaps it is because I feel like I was like Saul in the earlier years and am thankful that God forgave me for my errors.

St. Paul was so zealous and his teachings are great, it is just unfortunate that so many people twist his writings to fit their own agendas.
 
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Toni:
I have always loved St. Peter but in my later years and many conversions, I have found I pray to St. Peter to be a rock, but pray to St. Paul to be a zealous apostle for Christ. Perhaps it is because I feel like I was like Saul in the earlier years and am thankful that God forgave me for my errors.

St. Paul was so zealous and his teachings are great, it is just unfortunate that so many people twist his writings to fit their own agendas.
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Hello Toni,

I quote St. Paul all the time. Do not feel that his teaching is evil. Just remember to put Christ’s teaching above St. Paul’s writings. Jesus was the Son of God who knew that He was teaching to milleniums of masses of faithfull followers. St. Paul was a non Apostle, persecutor of the Church turned Christian. I am sure that if St. Paul would have known that some people in future generations would throw out Jesus teachings because of his writings to the Christian cities of his time, he would have cut off his hands in order to never write again.

Believing in Jesus means doing what Jesus tells you to do. Do not let what you think even biblical authors are writing, steer you differently.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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