Pay women to tie tubes?

[DustinM]

Whether the world population grows or collapses, we may only cope with the problem via moral means.

Surgical sterilization done with sterilization as the primary goal (rather than as treatment for another condition) is morally wrong. It is wrong to encourage it or willingly cooperate with its procurement. From a Catholic standpoint, if the average family size needs to be limited, it is best accomplished by those things which enhance self-control, self-respect, mutual respect between spouses, and accurate discernment of the actual responsibilities of each married couple and, to be blunt, each person capable of becoming a biological parent.

YES! I think it’s possible to never have a population problem (globally) while fully adhering to the Catholic faith. I think step one is getting people to realize that global overpopulation is something that *could *happen (kind my point in this thread), and that’s it’s our job to control it.

From a purely secular standpoint, though, note that the payment is only $1000 for a woman to have such a surgery. That sounds like a paltry sum to pay a woman to give up her ability to have children. It is as if it is targetted at just those women who are so tempted by that amount of money that the decision would be less than voluntary–that is, let’s cut down on the number of poor kids being born–or women who would have done it, anyway–let’s throw taxpayer money away for no reason. So we have both eugenics and waste. One doesn’t have to be a believer to find that repugnant.

Not sure I agree here, if we are talking purely from a secular perspective. I think that so long as the women participating do so freely, repugnant is too strong a word.
A lot of the women in question already may want this procedure (i.e. already want to give up the ability to have children). So a $1000 instead of having to pay for it sounds like a sweet deal to them.
Also, many of them already have many kids and are struggling to make ends meet as is. I’d, of course, encourage them to look into Natural Family Planning instead.

Furthermore–and again, this is apart from the Catholic moral teaching against sterilization of any kind for its own sake–one has to ask why the initiative is aimed at women only. Is it not far less invasive and less expensive to surgically sterilize men? Are men not far more likely to beget children without shouldering the responsibility to raise them? Are not the men, then, far more likely to be irresponsible about doing so? Why target the women, then? Do we believe that when pregnancy is chosen irresponsibly, it is the woman’s problem alone?

This is a very bad law.

Overall, I think we agree.

Hi again Dustin,
Sorry! I replied to you without reading some of the other threads where you explained what you were really getting at, ie: the world can’t contain an infinate number of people.

No problem

Of course without question your logic is correct… Now this takes us to a completely different subject. Will this ever happen? Since this is a Catholic Forum I don’t think I’m over steping the mark if I answer that from a spiritual perspective.

If we believe that Man is completely at the mercy of chance and his own greed, then the future sure looks gloomy. On the other hand, If all things are being guided according to a plan by an All Wise Creator, Then things start looking a little ( or a lot ) brighter.

Be fruitfull and multiply was the command given…
Now if the words, “But don’t over populate” had been added, then I’d start to worry.!

The thing is, a lot has gone bad in our world due to humans messing up big time. Overpopulation (or not) is in our hands too, so unless we do something, there could be a problem.
In other words, overpopulation is part of free will.

 

[neat62]

Tie women’s tubes? Only the Liberal ones, sure.

 

[martinfegan]

YES! I think it’s possible to never have a population problem (globally) while fully adhering to the Catholic faith. I think step one is getting people to realize that global overpopulation is something that *could *happen (kind my point in this thread), and that’s it’s our job to control it.

Not sure I agree here, if we are talking purely from a secular perspective. I think that so long as the women participating do so freely, repugnant is too strong a word.
A lot of the women in question already may want this procedure (i.e. already want to give up the ability to have children). So a $1000 instead of having to pay for it sounds like a sweet deal to them.
Also, many of them already have many kids and are struggling to make ends meet as is. I’d, of course, encourage them to look into Natural Family Planning instead.

Overall, I think we agree.

No problem

The thing is, a lot has gone bad in our world due to humans messing up big time. Overpopulation (or not) is in our hands too, so unless we do something, there could be a problem.
In other words, overpopulation is part of free will.

Again from a catholic ( or christian ) point of view, we believe that no child comes into this world without the fore-knolwedge and the creative action of God. To attempt to control this through birth restriction ( as in china ) or any other artificial means can only demean or deny the dignity of the human person.
The only moral course of action left for us individually and collectively, is to do our best to provide for the needs of all by using the intelligenge given us by God.
We share the very same humaity as Christ and whatever we do to the least of His fellow humans we do to Him.

 

[DustinM]

Again from a catholic ( or christian ) point of view, we believe that no child comes into this world without the fore-knolwedge and the creative action of God. To attempt to control this through birth restriction ( as in china ) or any other artificial means can only demean or deny the dignity of the human person.
The only moral course of action left for us individually and collectively, is to do our best to provide for the needs of all by using the intelligenge given us by God.
We share the very same humaity as Christ and whatever we do to the least of His fellow humans we do to Him.

Apparently I haven’t made this clear enough…I think it’s possible to avoid overpopulation through Catholic means. (NFP.)
Part of my purpose for posting in this thread in general is to make it undeniable that overpopulation could theoretically become a reality someday down the line, and we have the power to prevent it.

 

[martinfegan]

Apparently I haven’t made this clear enough…I think it’s possible to avoid overpopulation through Catholic means. (NFP.)
Part of my purpose for posting in this thread in general is to make it undeniable that overpopulation could theoretically become a reality someday down the line, and we have the power to prevent it.

Dustin I don’t think it is possible to avoid over population by catholic means. The only way to prevent population growth is to somehow stop people being born and this contradicts our catholic ethos. If however you mean we can provide for the continuing population growth by human ingenuity ie. developing currently uninhabited land and the like, then I’m sure all christians would agree that this is the way forward,
Again this brings us back to your origional point; “The world can’t contain an infinite number of people no matter how much land we reclaim.”
I think that birth and death rates are so finely tuned by God that over population will never become a reality that’s beyond proper, ethical human management.

 

[DustinM]

Dustin I don’t think it is possible to avoid over population by catholic means.

Sure it is. NFP isn’t just about measuring cervical mucus. It’s about communication between spouses to plan out having children, based on a variety of factors. One important such factor is the ability to care for and literally feed those children. In a world where over-population looms (not yet), the reasons for worry over feeding children may have a more global cause, but NFP could still be used.

The only way to prevent population growth is to somehow stop people being born and this contradicts our catholic ethos.

See above.

If however you mean we can provide for the continuing population growth by human ingenuity ie. developing currently uninhabited land and the like, then I’m sure all christians would agree that this is the way forward,
Again this brings us back to your origional point; “The world can’t contain an infinite number of people no matter how much land we reclaim.”
I think that birth and death rates are so finely tuned by God that over population will never become a reality that’s beyond proper, ethical human management.

Birth rates and death rates may be tuned by God, but we are a huge control factor there (especially in birth rates).
Are you suggesting that before global overpopulation happens God will simply increase the death rate? (And what if God’s intention is for us to conquer overpopulation via NFP?)

 

[martinfegan]

Sure it is. NFP isn’t just about measuring cervical mucus. It’s about communication between spouses to plan out having children, based on a variety of factors. One important such factor is the ability to care for and literally feed those children. In a world where over-population looms (not yet), the reasons for worry over feeding children may have a more global cause, but NFP could still be used.

See above.

Birth rates and death rates may be tuned by God, but we are a huge control factor there (especially in birth rates).
Are you suggesting that before global overpopulation happens God will simply increase the death rate? (And what if God’s intention is for us to conquer overpopulation via NFP?)

I’m not gonna hazard a guess as to what God will or won’t do but I would say that controlling over population via NFP would be impossible for a couple of reasons. How would you get Catholics ( never mind the rest of the population ) to voluntarily reduce the number of children they wish to have and even if they did agree, knowing human nature as we do and the strength of the reproductive urge within humanity, I suspect that the effect would be so mimimal it would escape detection.
However there are some clues as to what God’s intentions are concerning the population of the wold from His own words.
“Be fruitfull and multiply” and Jesus Himself saying. “Don’t worry what you are to eat or what you are to wear etc, As your Heavenly Father well knows what your needs are; rather seek first the Kingdom of God and all else will be added.”
I therefore feel that the answer to the population question and all other problems will be found in the conversion of the world.
In the meantime while abortion, war and untold new diseases continue to plague our planet, I think under population could be a real threat.