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tomarin
Guest
I think because the USA is historically a Protestant nation, it may have never occurred to the people at PBS that Martin Luther could be in any way controversial.
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K
Knights
Guest
Great article here http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/fa8c037411e42c031cd7802e9d2c2781-644.html
I couldnt watch it anymore made him look like a Saint. I dont know if Cardinal.Dolan was taken out of context but the clips zhowed him praising him! If you read the article above you will see Luther or Luficer’s oops own words! The show tried to make him this innocent victim trying to point out the ills of the church…he knew what he was doing! He caused a schism and tore souls away! He was disobedient to the Holy See! Luther is not a hero
I couldnt watch it anymore made him look like a Saint. I dont know if Cardinal.Dolan was taken out of context but the clips zhowed him praising him! If you read the article above you will see Luther or Luficer’s oops own words! The show tried to make him this innocent victim trying to point out the ills of the church…he knew what he was doing! He caused a schism and tore souls away! He was disobedient to the Holy See! Luther is not a hero
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BayCityRickL
Guest
when I change my socks the world is changed, What? change in itsself is good enough to tear Christianity in half? The subtitle is self-indulgent.
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JoeV
Guest
JoeV,
First of all, thank you to all who replied to the topic!
I’d like to address a couple of items in regard to PBS, History, NatGeo et al and the media bias in presenting programs in regard to faith, religion and morality. While it is true that some programs are balanced or support the moral traditions of Christianity the fact is that most programs do not. Good case in point was The Bible series produced by Roma Downey and Mark Burnett that originally aired on the History channel "The Bible": How a hit TV miniseries was born - CBS News . The series was excellent, following the life of Christ through to his Crucifixion, death and Resurrection. A few weeks later History presented the “Secrets of the Bible” series. The program was replete with Jewish scholars, Protestant theologians and Prof. Candida Moss Phd., of Notre Dame who wrote a book claiming that martyrdom in the early church was a myth. Notre Dame Professor Claims Christian Martyrdom Is a Myth | Catholic Answers
The “Secrets of the Bible” sought to discredit the Christian faith and tradition and ultimately questioned whether Christ was simply a political rabble agitator put down by Rome. Bottom line, PBS et al are biased against our faith and moral teachings in the main and should not receive public funding, period. They no longer need it and are well funded by Hollywood and corporate types that pander to the left and all of their immoral causes. The programs they produce are not helpful to anyone not fully grounded and formed in their faith, seek to cause moral confusion and support for the principles of relativism.
With regard to the appearance of Cardinal Dolan; it seems that PBS interviewed him about Marin Luther and his life and used only a few select pieces of a larger session. If he would have refused, the headline would read the Cardinal and the Catholic Church snub the most important reformer of the church in 500 years. It was a shame that his up front statements might be viewed by some as an imprimatur of the series.
I think the biggest question posed by the series was whether Luther’s attempts to reform the abuses of indulgences were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and what point his total break with the Pope and the Catholic Church received inspiration from elsewhere. Certainly, like Mohamed before Luther, the Holy Spirit did not lead the reformers to not only break away from the teaching of Christ in the Gospel but to persecute the Catholic Church.
Yours in Christ, joev
First of all, thank you to all who replied to the topic!
I’d like to address a couple of items in regard to PBS, History, NatGeo et al and the media bias in presenting programs in regard to faith, religion and morality. While it is true that some programs are balanced or support the moral traditions of Christianity the fact is that most programs do not. Good case in point was The Bible series produced by Roma Downey and Mark Burnett that originally aired on the History channel "The Bible": How a hit TV miniseries was born - CBS News . The series was excellent, following the life of Christ through to his Crucifixion, death and Resurrection. A few weeks later History presented the “Secrets of the Bible” series. The program was replete with Jewish scholars, Protestant theologians and Prof. Candida Moss Phd., of Notre Dame who wrote a book claiming that martyrdom in the early church was a myth. Notre Dame Professor Claims Christian Martyrdom Is a Myth | Catholic Answers
The “Secrets of the Bible” sought to discredit the Christian faith and tradition and ultimately questioned whether Christ was simply a political rabble agitator put down by Rome. Bottom line, PBS et al are biased against our faith and moral teachings in the main and should not receive public funding, period. They no longer need it and are well funded by Hollywood and corporate types that pander to the left and all of their immoral causes. The programs they produce are not helpful to anyone not fully grounded and formed in their faith, seek to cause moral confusion and support for the principles of relativism.
With regard to the appearance of Cardinal Dolan; it seems that PBS interviewed him about Marin Luther and his life and used only a few select pieces of a larger session. If he would have refused, the headline would read the Cardinal and the Catholic Church snub the most important reformer of the church in 500 years. It was a shame that his up front statements might be viewed by some as an imprimatur of the series.
I think the biggest question posed by the series was whether Luther’s attempts to reform the abuses of indulgences were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and what point his total break with the Pope and the Catholic Church received inspiration from elsewhere. Certainly, like Mohamed before Luther, the Holy Spirit did not lead the reformers to not only break away from the teaching of Christ in the Gospel but to persecute the Catholic Church.
Yours in Christ, joev
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steido01
Guest
You do realize that the “rules of the game” you would have Luther “agree to” were essentially “Come to Rome and be burned like Jan Hus,” don’t you? Whether one considers it self-preservation or bravery, Luther took the only sane option.
I’d also like to point out that the Theses aren’t even Lutheran, not really. Just read them. That’s why they weren’t really defended by Luther later in his career, and why they have no place in any Lutheran Confessional documents. Frankly, they simply stated views that were common in some corners of Catholicism, though certainly not the majority. It’s silly to pretend the Roman Church was always doctrinally uniform. It never was, isn’t today, and won’t be until Christ returns. Luther is just the face that folks give to that particular voice.
When it comes to public education, this is a point that Luther made incredible progress on. This stemmed from his unique views on vocation, or “calling.” He believed that parents had a vocation to teach their children (hence the Lutheran emphasis on familial catechesis, planned schooling and service to others, all of which continue today). He was also the first major proponent of children having their own vocation - to learn. This was reflected in Lutheran art, which depicted children as children. This sounds silly, but prior to the Reformation, medieval art usually depicted children as either infants or adults drawn smaller, with adult proportions. You might see the occasional cherub, but very few, if any, actual human children with human child proportions. But in Lutheranism, children were valued. They weren’t expected to work, but to learn. This is why Lutheran Germany became the epicenter of various schools of education under folks like Gerhard and Grundtvig, who laid the foundations for the Danish and Waldorf styles, among others. Maria Montessori (a Catholic) gleaned much of her famous method from Lutherans (just google Grundtvig’s style if you won’t believe me. Heck, “Kindergarten” is a German word for a reason!
I’d also like to point out that the Theses aren’t even Lutheran, not really. Just read them. That’s why they weren’t really defended by Luther later in his career, and why they have no place in any Lutheran Confessional documents. Frankly, they simply stated views that were common in some corners of Catholicism, though certainly not the majority. It’s silly to pretend the Roman Church was always doctrinally uniform. It never was, isn’t today, and won’t be until Christ returns. Luther is just the face that folks give to that particular voice.
When it comes to public education, this is a point that Luther made incredible progress on. This stemmed from his unique views on vocation, or “calling.” He believed that parents had a vocation to teach their children (hence the Lutheran emphasis on familial catechesis, planned schooling and service to others, all of which continue today). He was also the first major proponent of children having their own vocation - to learn. This was reflected in Lutheran art, which depicted children as children. This sounds silly, but prior to the Reformation, medieval art usually depicted children as either infants or adults drawn smaller, with adult proportions. You might see the occasional cherub, but very few, if any, actual human children with human child proportions. But in Lutheranism, children were valued. They weren’t expected to work, but to learn. This is why Lutheran Germany became the epicenter of various schools of education under folks like Gerhard and Grundtvig, who laid the foundations for the Danish and Waldorf styles, among others. Maria Montessori (a Catholic) gleaned much of her famous method from Lutherans (just google Grundtvig’s style if you won’t believe me. Heck, “Kindergarten” is a German word for a reason!
J
JoeV
Guest
Relativism is alive and well in our world and in at least half of the Catholic population in America. We only need to look objectively at the disparate views on abortion, contraception, Eucharistic reception for the divorced etc.
The “ends” never justify the means under any circumstance. So no matter whatever good Luther did for education or anything else would apologize for what he did in the split from Catholicism. Some theologians say that the mass is the engine of salvation and it is cosmic in effect. In other words the salvation of only one soul through the graces received in the sacrifice of the mass and reception of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ ripple forward throughout the end of the world.
The Reformation has had the a like affect in the negative since it spawned a myriad of branches and sequels taking the masses of humanity away from the grace of the Sacraments. We need only to look at the country of Honduras which was 97% Catholic in 1904, remained 94% Catholic in 1972 and today is only 46% Catholic. The explosion of evangelical Protestantism now accounts for more than 50% of the faith based religious population. It is no wonder that crime, corruption are rampant and that Honduras has the worst murder rate per capita in the world. In short the Reformation and its spread took the faithful away from the saving graces of God’s Sacraments.
I can in no way apologize or excuse what Luther did to humanity in lighting the fire of “reformation”.
joev
The “ends” never justify the means under any circumstance. So no matter whatever good Luther did for education or anything else would apologize for what he did in the split from Catholicism. Some theologians say that the mass is the engine of salvation and it is cosmic in effect. In other words the salvation of only one soul through the graces received in the sacrifice of the mass and reception of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ ripple forward throughout the end of the world.
The Reformation has had the a like affect in the negative since it spawned a myriad of branches and sequels taking the masses of humanity away from the grace of the Sacraments. We need only to look at the country of Honduras which was 97% Catholic in 1904, remained 94% Catholic in 1972 and today is only 46% Catholic. The explosion of evangelical Protestantism now accounts for more than 50% of the faith based religious population. It is no wonder that crime, corruption are rampant and that Honduras has the worst murder rate per capita in the world. In short the Reformation and its spread took the faithful away from the saving graces of God’s Sacraments.
I can in no way apologize or excuse what Luther did to humanity in lighting the fire of “reformation”.
joev
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steido01
Guest
If you consider relativism to be endorsed by Luther, then you don’t know Luther or Lutheranism at all. Find a single Confessional Lutheran (that’s real Lutherans, not the Lutheran-in-name-only modernists) who endorses relativism in the least. Better yet, find a single Lutheran confessional document that endorses relativism. You won’t.
However, if we want to see a relativistic muddying-of-the-Truth, we need only read what modern popes have promulgated about ‘Accidental Christianity,’ or their ‘ecumenical’ words stating rather unambiguously that the Koran and the Bible are “the same,” or the Roman Catholic belief that Islam and Christianity worship the same God. Frankly, after Vatican II acknowledged that all religions hold ‘some ray of the Truth,’ what leg does Rome have to stand on? No, dear friend, Relativism is not a Martin Luther problem. It’s a secular danger that’s been tightening its grip on popular Catholicism for at least a century and a half.
As for splinters and factions, do consider that there was no singular “Reformation.” There was a Lutheran Reformation, a Zwinglian Reformation, an English Reformation, a Roman Counter-Reformation, a French Reformation, and these all interconnected. None of it can be stapled down to one country or one church or one man. History isn’t that clean-cut: Luther was partly to blame; Pope Leo X was partly to blame; Zwingli and, later, Calvin would be partly to blame, Muntzer, the Zwickau Prophets, Henry VIII, Eck, Melanchthon, Cajetan, Erasmus, Charles V, Frederick the Wise, John the Steadfast, Duke Maurice… we couldn’t even pretend to make an exhaustive list. The fault lies in all Christians. When we acknowledge that, we can begin moving toward a meaningful dialogue led by the Spirit into all Truth. And so, I’d prefer to take the advice of very wise men:
However, if we want to see a relativistic muddying-of-the-Truth, we need only read what modern popes have promulgated about ‘Accidental Christianity,’ or their ‘ecumenical’ words stating rather unambiguously that the Koran and the Bible are “the same,” or the Roman Catholic belief that Islam and Christianity worship the same God. Frankly, after Vatican II acknowledged that all religions hold ‘some ray of the Truth,’ what leg does Rome have to stand on? No, dear friend, Relativism is not a Martin Luther problem. It’s a secular danger that’s been tightening its grip on popular Catholicism for at least a century and a half.
As for splinters and factions, do consider that there was no singular “Reformation.” There was a Lutheran Reformation, a Zwinglian Reformation, an English Reformation, a Roman Counter-Reformation, a French Reformation, and these all interconnected. None of it can be stapled down to one country or one church or one man. History isn’t that clean-cut: Luther was partly to blame; Pope Leo X was partly to blame; Zwingli and, later, Calvin would be partly to blame, Muntzer, the Zwickau Prophets, Henry VIII, Eck, Melanchthon, Cajetan, Erasmus, Charles V, Frederick the Wise, John the Steadfast, Duke Maurice… we couldn’t even pretend to make an exhaustive list. The fault lies in all Christians. When we acknowledge that, we can begin moving toward a meaningful dialogue led by the Spirit into all Truth. And so, I’d prefer to take the advice of very wise men:
[L]arge communities [have] became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.
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