Peer-reviewed explanation of Luther’s canon?

[AugustTherese]

The person this quote was written to was actually living in Luther’s house (Luther was away when he wrote it). The person was therefore around Luther’s wife and children. Would Luther really be counseling someone to get drunk around his wife and small children? I don’t think so. Luther’s house was alive with friends and faculty,

So, then what was Luther’s hidden, underlying point in saying, “in a little to spite the devil”? You did not offer a context, you just imposed a situation that does not really have anything to do with the language Luther used.

 

[jcrichton]

That’s a poor defense of Luther.

Just give it up.

Why would a person sin profusely to stimulate God’s Graces to fall upon him/her?

St. Paul checks that hundreds of years prior to Luther’s innovation (creative theology):

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6)

Instead of continuing in this vein Luther invents a new way of looking at God–it’s like those who take the Sacrament of Extreme Unction and claim that a person can sin till the end of his/her life and just before catching his/her last breath a Priest can fully absolve him/her from all sin; as if God could be tricked into dispensing Grace and Absolution at man’s whim.

Stating that God can forgive all sin does not mean that one can sin profusely because God can forgive all sin. The only way you can move from this point is to satisfy the context and content of Luther’s expression.

Since I’ve only the material quoted, perhaps you can expand on the quote (not by defending it with your interpretation of what Luther meant) by providing Luther’s own quote explaining what he meant by murder and adultery a-la-smorgasbord.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The private counsel was just that private counsel. The letter was written specifically to a man who was timid, depressive, and melancholic.

Wait, so I can tell a “friend” that she can have relations with me, as many times as she desires, since she’s depressed and feeling unwanted, unappreciated, and confused?

Yet, when addressing people in general I can counsel them to live a holy and chaste life and I’m teaching right on both counts?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

context! Certainly you want people to read all your words, and not simply pour the meaning in they want to?

So where’s the rest of it? Where’s the portion where Luther counters what seems to be a call to sin profusely because all has already been forgiven in Christ?

Where did he followed a thousand adulteries with not what God Commands–rather, God Calls you to Holiness not to use His Grace as a means to sin profusely?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steido01]

The private counsel was just that private counsel. The letter was written specifically to a man who was timid, depressive, and melancholic.

Indeed. The pastoral Luther was writing to a specific occasion, as occasional theologians are wont to do.

Thanks, as always, for the additional context, James.

 

[steido01]

Where’s the portion where Luther counters what seems to be a call to sin profusely because all has already been forgiven in Christ?

You mean “what seems to me.” You are injecting your own spin to what Luther wrote. You are injecting your own spin that’s utterly illogical given the context of both the text and Luther’s actual situation.

Now, answer the questions you ignored:

• Do you deny that God has the power to forgive someone who murdered or committed adultery thousands of times a day? If not, you agree with Luther.
• If so, why is your Christ’s atonement so limited? Can he not actually forgive all the sins of the world? Is he so weak?
• Where do you draw your line for forgiveable sins? At seven? Seventy? Seventy times seven and no more?

 

[steido01]

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.” - Martin Luther

Let’s translate for modern ears:

“Whenever the devil has you feeling worthless and you feel depression coming on, go hang out with people. Grab a drink with your bros, joke around and shoot the schatt, or go do some other fun thing. Sometimes we just have to get off the couch, close down the bar, toss around the pigskin, just plain have fun. Heck, even raise a ruckus just spite the devil, so he’s got nothing to hang over us. When we constantly worry whether this-or-that is a sin or not, we’re just going to end up depressed. So when you’re feeling sorry for yourself and the devil’s all, like, “You’re a bad Christian if you drink alcohol!” Look him square in the eyes, and answer him with a double from the bartender, just because he’s telling you not to.” - Martin Luther, basically

 

[jcrichton]

Wow, talk about stickler… do you not see the answer?

God can forgive, yes; no the Fact that God’s Grace and Mercy Abounds does not mean that man is called to unrighteousness; so instead of promoting sin as the means to gain more of God’s Grace, any responsible Believer would call to Holiness for that’s what God has Call us to Be: Be Holy for I AM HOLY!

You continue to ignore that I cannot teach a brethren to give up drugs, alcohol or anything else by claiming that Christ forgives everything no matter what nor how many times.

Instead on insinuating that it is “me” who sees the wrongness in Luther’s “private” elocution, demonstrate with his words how he clarifies that he is actually teaching that we must not sin.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

…well, if one goes by the numbers, Luther has Jesus beat by the thousands!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wow, so I should get drunk and invite my boss to get drunk with me; perhaps round up some girls and have at it, cause the devil will not expect me to encourage people into orgies; the devil will be so confused that, in my libertine spirit, he will not be able to get the best of me but will think he got me so I will slip the scathe of eternal damnation because Christ will be waiting for me at the end of the tunnel?

Rather should Luther not have stated something akin to, 'Do not Fear God for He has Given us His Only Begotten Son so that all Who Believe and Turn to Him will be Saved. Forget your worries. Forget your fret. Turn back to God by giving up sin and unrighteousness. Clean yourselves in God’s Mercy and Justice and He Will Lift you up!.. is that not more of a counsel to go/come/remain in Christ than to seek liberty and caroling and joy.

What do the Apostles Teach, fun, fun, fun, till your daddy takes the t-bird away? Quite not!:

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (St. James 4)

Mind you, I’m no scholar, but it seems that Luther has demonstrated why he thought so lowly about St. James–it seems that St. James teaches the opposite of Luther’s theology (ok, his private theology 'cause he as witting to a friend not to a community, right?).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steido01]

God can forgive, yes;

Good; you agree with Luther.

no the Fact that God’s Grace and Mercy Abounds does not mean that man is called to unrighteousness;

Good; you agree with Luther.

so instead of promoting sin as the means to gain more of God’s Grace, any responsible Believer would call to Holiness for that’s what God has Call us to Be: Be Holy for I AM HOLY!

Luther is not actively promoting sin. You are confused. I’ve already explained once, and again, how you are taking one line from one personal letter out of context and placing it against the whole body of Luther’s work.

St. Paul checks that hundreds of years prior to Luther’s innovation (creative theology):

This is just silly. I quoted this passage from Paul in defense of Luther once, and again:

“By no means!”

 

[jcrichton]

No. I meant that Jesus Founded one Church (one Body of Believers) and Luther’s departure motivated man to create their own bodies of believers… so if we go by the numbers Luther got Jesus beat, by the thousands (get it?): One Church vs. myriads and still splintering…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steido01]

Wow, so I should get drunk and invite my boss to get drunk with me; perhaps round up some girls and have at it, cause the devil will not expect me to encourage people into orgies; the devil will be so confused that, in my libertine spirit, he will not be able to get the best of me but will think he got me so I will slip the scathe of eternal damnation because Christ will be waiting for me at the end of the tunnel?

Now you’re just being profane. There’s no point in continuing dialogue with you.

I should’ve kept my promise to leave this thread; I am sorry I did not. Goodbye.

 

[jcrichton]

Good; you agree with Luther

No, I agree with Christ.

Good; you agree with Luther.

Not if sinning profusely means it’s ok with God 'cause He will forgive your hard work at sinning.

Luther is not actively promoting sin. You are confused. I’ve already explained once, and again, how you are taking one line from one personal letter out of context and placing it against the whole body of Luther’s work.

Luther also explained that he knew what St. Paul meant when he wrote into the margin of his Bible “alone” (meaning by ‘faith alone’); an interpretation is not the same as what is being stated. Again, demonstrate where Luther explains that we are called to Holiness not to sin profusely in the same documentation that he expresses that it’s ok to kill and commit adultery ‘cause God forgives.’ (yeah, I added hat last phrase)

This is just silly. I quoted this passage from Paul in defense of Luther once, and again:

But you seen to intimate that Luther is teaching what that passage is saying while stating the opposite.

How can I say water is wet by saying dry ice? Yes, these are both seeming to be H2O; but no, dry ice does not translate to water is wet.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I do not understand; you took liberties in interpreting Luther; I took liberty in expressing what he seems to be saying by a call to fight evil with evil… how is that profane?

I do apologize for making you uneasy–perhaps you might want to rethink what you believe in light of a different understanding; if you do, I may gain you as a friend since you would know that my intent is to get you past what you have come to accept just because Luther inked it.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I fully concur!

Maran atha!

Angel