People who need the Church to be wrong

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DisorientingSneeze

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I have a friend I love dearly and want the best for with whom I am increasingly frustrated. She attends mass and many parish events and is raising her children in the church, but is outspoken against church teachings. It’s the usual topics society gets riled about: women priests, divorce, contraception.

I could be wrong, but I have a theory forming that she NEEDS the church to be wrong about some things so it can be wrong about IVF. IVF gave her her children.

Have any of you ever been that person who needed the church to be wrong, or known a Catholic who needed the church to be wrong? What changed for you or them? I could use a tale of hope.

What I want for her so much is the peace of knowing she doesn’t have to regret her children to understand and follow the church. I don’t think she even knew IVF was a problem when she did it.
 
She doesn’t need it to be wrong. In her eyes it simply is wrong.
 
I agree with Shakuhachi. This lady may simply think the Church is wrong on a lot of things, and she is outspoken about saying so.

Plenty of Catholics think the Church is wrong on one or more teachings, but they do not go around saying so for various reasons, such as not wanting to get into arguments over it. Other people just have the kind of personality where they speak up a lot and complain a lot and talk a lot, or they feel it’s important to speak up on whatever particular issue they’re raising.

I don’t think you should waste your time theorizing about why the lady in question feels as she does. If she’s going to Mass and parish events and raising her kids in the church, then she’s living a decent Catholic life. With respect to the IVF pregnancies, it’s entirely possible she didn’t know it was wrong when she did it, or she got bad advice from a priest, or she has been over the issue in confession since the last child was born and been absolved of any sin she might have committed. And unless she has actually expressed any regret to you about having done this, you shouldn’t be assuming she feels any. Even if she did tell you she felt regret, I think it’s a stretch to assume that her feelings on women priests, divorce and contraception all stem from regret over IVF.

If her tirades against the Church are wearing you out, maybe you just need to tell her that you personally agree with the Church on all those issues and would rather not talk about them because you would rather talk about fun, pleasant things with her than have to debate such heavy stuff. And of course pray for her.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
If her tirades against the Church are wearing you out, maybe you just need to tell her that you personally agree with the Church on all those issues and would rather not talk about them because you would rather talk about fun, pleasant things with her than have to debate such heavy stuff.
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We are in a class that studies papal encyclicals together, but I think you’re right. We can steer away from atleast some of these things.
 
DisorientingSneeze said:
We are in a class that studies papal encyclicals together
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My condolences. I like the idea of studying papal encyclicals, but having to discuss them with other Catholics would be like…this forum…only if it’s not on the Internet, I can’t mute thread or go Facebook instead 🙂

If I were in that class I’d likely have a few disagreements with the Church, some of which I’ve already expressed on this forum and drawn the usual remarks about being a “liberal”, a “cafeteria Catholic”, not really “practicing my faith” (despite my efforts to pray and go to church daily), and people saying I commit the sin of pride. I’m sure people trying to find some psychological reason for my strange thoughts would not be far behind.
 
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This is why I thought very hard about converting. I don’t agree with it all but I have made a commitment to be obedient to it in the hope that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes. He has on many thing that I used to disagree with
 
halogirl said:
I don’t agree with it all but I have made a commitment to be obedient to it in the hope that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes.
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My feelings exactly.

I sometimes pray something like this: "God, if you want to change this teaching/ practice, then I trust you will inspire Your church to do so at just the right time, which might not be in my lifetime. If the teaching/ practice is right and I am wrong, which may very well be the case as I’m kinda stupid sometimes, then please send the Holy Spirit to me to help me understand it better. In the meantime, I accept it, though I don’t fully understand it. "
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
My condolences. I like the idea of studying papal encyclicals, but having to discuss them with other Catholics would be like…this forum…only if it’s not on the Internet, I can’t mute thread or go Facebook instead 🙂
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😆 When you put it that way, I’ve really lucked out mostly with the dynamic of the group.
 
Good to know she’s smarter than a 2000 year old institution that has outlived empires…
 
Tis_Bearself said:
If she’s going to Mass and parish events and raising her kids in the church, then she’s living a decent Catholic life.
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I disagree. I am of the opinion that if you are vocally against Church teachings just stop identifying as Catholic. I think it’s more honest.
 
Dis agreement with Church teaching is usually inconsequential unless one is teaching or making some moral decision. But, take contraception for example, a person,aside from that can be an excellent Catholic. Does this one issue make them disingenuous? Maybe. A purist would say they should just leave. That would by almost 90%

" Most American Catholics, including those who go to church on a regular basis, have no moral problem with contraception, the survey found.

“Just 8 percent said contraception is morally wrong, with 89 percent saying it was either morally acceptable or not a moral issue at all.”

 
Elf01 said:
I disagree. I am of the opinion that if you are vocally against Church teachings just stop identifying as Catholic. I think it’s more honest.
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I vehemently disagree with this. If you are not actively leading people away from the Church, you don’t deserve to be thrown out over your own doubt.
God also doesn’t want you out.
And by your standards we would even lose a great many saints who questioned the Church in its time.
In addition, by your standards, I myself should quit the Church and leave Jesus because I don’t agree with every current teaching.
I’m sure a lot of people on the forum feel that way.
Well guess what? I’m not going anywhere…except into Mass right now.

God bless
 
Tis_Bearself said:
If you are not actively leading people away from the Church, you don’t deserve to be thrown out over your own doubt.
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In my opinion vocally disagreeing is leading people away from the Church. Asking in the hope to understand is one thing. Saying the Church is wrong about this is another.
 
I think there are a lot of Catholics who just can’t get on board with all Church teachings. I see here where others will consider them “bad” Catholics. “Misinformed” Catholics. “Lacking in understanding”. The reality of what I know is that none of these discriptions apply. They are simply Catholics who aren’t able to get on board with every teaching.

I once asked a priest frind of mine about this. As someone who doesn’t believe at all in many Catholic teachings or concept of God, I was raised in the Church and understand it well. My mom still is a faithful Catholic and I like to go with her to her Church and help with volunteer projects, etc. Her old parish was very accepting. Her current parish…not so much. I don’t wear a badge that says “agnostic”, but once people get to know me they either are very accepting or they actually shun. Anyhow, I asked my priest friend if there is supposed to be a “place at the table” for someone like me in the Catholic Church. Someone who is 100% agnostic but who still values the Church in many ways. Obviously, this is an extreme case compared to your friend, OP. But I will never forget my friend’s answer. He said that, while he would prefer I was on-board with the Church 100%, he would much rather me engage in what I felt I could tolerate than not engage at all.

My take away from that conversation was that, in life, it is well worth the effort to accept people “where they are”. We don’t need to fret over this. We don’t need to try to convince others they are wrong for what they believe. We should welcome them into the arena where they have the possibility of growing, learning, and embrace them as they are.

I realize this might be a little hippy-dippy for some readers here, but I felt inspired to share my story.
 
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I agree with you that people in the Church should be more accwpting of people who are somehow different.

However, you do not call yourself a Catholic, and you show appreciation for the good the Church does.
DisorientingSneeze said:
She attends mass and many parish events and is raising her children in the church, but is outspoken against church teachings. It’s the usual topics society gets riled about: women priests, divorce, contraception.
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When my children were little, I was very outspokenly judgemental about any deviations I saw in the priests. I wanted my children to know The Truth. This was a huge mistake on my part, and now all my children have left the Church. I handled this badly.

Your friend may well be having trouble reconciling the fact that without having committed the sin of IVF, she wouldn’t have her children. And this is a difficult thing, but she is handling it badly.

My mother left the Church when I was very young and was very critical of the same topics, and I assumed the Church was wrong. A bad time to learn from the experience of others 😦 So ai was away from the Church, from God, for many wasted years.

God draws good out of evil, but I can understand your friend’s dilemma: how can she say the act which brought her beloved children into being was wrong? How can she tell others who may be considering IVF that they should deny themselves what she has so greatly benefited from?
 
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Maybe she’s angry with the Church because she cares about the Church. Indiference is the death of love not anger.
And she’s honest and tell you so. If you want to “pay her back” reply to her ideas and prove them wrong. Or tell her how you really feel and let honesty guide your friendship from that moment on.
But you presuming she needs the Church to be wrong because this and that, presuming you saw your soul is judgemental. When you judge it goes like this - you are either right or wrong. Jesus never specifically said not to judge, if you see the need to judge do so. But not behind her back.
Tell her what you’re telling us here and if you hit a point or THE point she will melt down and confess in you.
Praying for the two of you!
 
QwertyGirl said:
I think there are a lot of Catholics who just can’t get on board with all Church teachings.
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I think you would be hard pressed to find even one Catholic on this forum who agrees wholeheartedly with every teaching of the Church.
For every Catholic who has the issues the OP described her friend as having, there’s one on the opposite side who has a problem with Pope Francis, with bishops perceived as too “liberal”, with the change in death penalty teaching, or with the use of the OF Mass in all its permutations.

I really don’t envy the Church leadership having to balance all these different viewpoints trying to keep schisms from occurring and people from leaving.
 
DisorientingSneeze said:
I could be wrong, but I have a theory forming that she NEEDS the church to be wrong about some things so it can be wrong about IVF. IVF gave her her children.
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Fornication gave us our son. We were unmarried when he was conceived. That does not make my son any less a loved child of God, it also does not make fornication okay.

Children are conceived in spite of the sins of rape, adultery, fornication, IVF, this helps us to remember that God brings about beauty from the ashes of sin.

Keep loving her, keep treating her with kindness.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve always been under the impression that the problem with IVF is the question of what happens to the fertilized eggs that go unused or are destroyed and that it has nothing to do with value of the lives born from the procedure. Perhaps this is weighing on the mind of your friend and she expresses it by having disagreements with the Church.
 
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