People with gender identity issues and sex change surgeries!

[warpspeedpetey]

Please just answer that simple question what sex is that particular person. In order to determine whether they are guilty of the grave sin of homosexuality which is objectively disordered as all Catholics are called on to attest to we must know what sex someone is. It is my contention that only the theologians of the Church can determine this not science and not biological facts. You seem to think otherwise so I asked you a question.

You have responded with vicious libel implying that I am a homosexual apologist and I will pray that God forgives you for bearing false witness.

You clearly are doing so. Your statements regarding obedience to the Church and statements regarding homosexuality, and your assertion of scientific studies that support the homosexual activities by trying to include them with those who suffer hermaphroditic medical conditions, contradict each other. Your true position is transparent from your posts. Having analyzed your posts, it seems to me that you are playing a character that you think accurately reflects what a traditional Catholic believes. The dialogue is stilted and one dimensional. More than 90% of your posts concern homosexuality in some way. It seem readily apparent to me. Of Course that is only my opinion, I invite everyone to read all your posts and their context here forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=8250005 If I get a bad vibe, I think others would as well…Something just isn’t right here.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

There are very, very, VERY few people who are born with ambiguous sexual organs. I mean, miniscule numbers. When I find the statistics I will share them.

Most people know what gender they are when they are born. Even homosexuals do not usually wonder what gender they are, they just know that they are attracted to the same gender, not the opposite one.

Blurring “intersex” issues with the issue of SSA and homosexuality won’t work here. Changing your gender because of psychological problems would be grave sin. God had no doubts as to what he wanted you to be when he created you in your mother’s womb. God does not make mistakes.

 

[Dale_M]

Most people know what gender they are when they are born.

erm… I am not sure you meant that the same way you wrote that. Surely there is no way for a newborn to indicate his or her sexual identity? However, even if we do accept the idea that sexual identity is fixed at birth, many transsexuals would say that they have known since their earliest memory that their genitalia did not match their own sexual identity.

Even homosexuals do not usually wonder what gender they are, they just know that they are attracted to the same gender, not the opposite one.

I agree. Sexual orientation and sexual identity are completely separate issues.

God had no doubts as to what he wanted you to be when he created you in your mother’s womb. God does not make mistakes.

God does not make mistakes, but nature does. Approximately 3% of children in the US are born with a birth defect. However, few people would argue that such defects shouldn’t be treated, and corrected if possible.

 

[mgreen77]

Changing your gender because of psychological problems would be grave sin.

But if people can’t really “change gender” (chromosomes don’t change, etc.), then can there be a sin for doing it?

What should such people actually confess to?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

erm… I am not sure you meant that the same way you wrote that. Surely there is no way for a newborn to indicate his or her sexual identity? However, even if we do accept the idea that sexual identity is fixed at birth, many transsexuals would say that they have known since their earliest memory that their genitalia did not match their own sexual identity.

I agree. Sexual orientation and sexual identity are completely separate issues.

God does not make mistakes, but nature does. Approximately 3% of children in the US are born with a birth defect. However, few people would argue that such defects shouldn’t be treated, and corrected if possible.

We can treat people who have gender confusion. It’s called psychotherapy.

 

[Gregory_I]

It seems to me that what is lacking here is the understanding that Sex and Gender are not the same. Gender is a psycho-spiritual quality: Masculine and Feminine. Sex is the physical organ.

Nevertheless, the Sex manifests the Gender, because to be Masculine is to be male, and to be Feminine is to be Female.

God created your sex as an expression of your gender.

THere is nothing to be confused about. THe confusion arises when people are not given clear answers at young ages, and are not taught any discipline. SO they just do whatever they FEEL is right and pretty soon their oh-so-infallible FEELINGS lead them to conclude they would rather enjoy being a girl instead of a boy because it fulfills some deep-seated psychological need. That is perverse and wrong.

This CHOICE to be OTHER than what you were created to be is an act that is intrinsically disordered and reflective of the inner turmoil of the soul that is turned in on itself.

Serve others, and you will get over yourself. Really, it works wonders.

 

[leeyn]

E 'normally. I think in principle it is possible that some people do not have sex fully formed at birth and, therefore, with the objective fact of sex.
…

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[Dale_M]

We can treat people who have gender confusion. It’s called psychotherapy.

Yes, persons who are not sure which sex/gender they belong to will likely benefit from psychotherapy. Indeed, the international standards of care for the treatment of transsexualism requires such therapy before any kind of medical intervention is tried.

 

[Cherry5]

It seems to me that what is lacking here is the understanding that Sex and Gender are not the same. Gender is a psycho-spiritual quality: Masculine and Feminine. Sex is the physical organ.

Nevertheless, the Sex manifests the Gender, because to be Masculine is to be male, and to be Feminine is to be Female.

God created your sex as an expression of your gender.

Thanks for the clarification.

THere is nothing to be confused about. THe confusion arises when people are not given clear answers at young ages, and are not taught any discipline. SO they just do whatever they FEEL is right and pretty soon their oh-so-infallible FEELINGS lead them to conclude they would rather enjoy being a girl instead of a boy because it fulfills some deep-seated psychological need. That is perverse and wrong.

Not sure where you are getting this from! sounds so simplistic, yet baseless and judgmental. Most psychologists in the know of this condition would disagree with your diagnosis.

 

[Carmel_B]

We can treat people who have gender confusion. It’s called psychotherapy.

Which has no effect that has ever been measured in follow-up studies and is exactly as effective at dealing with the problem as it is with dealing with other congenital abnormalities such as cleft palate. Psychotherapy does not change the anatomy of the patient and it is the anatomy that is causal here as it is with those distressed by having limbs amputated and other anatomical problems.

 

[Carmel_B]

But if people can’t really “change gender” (chromosomes don’t change, etc.), then can there be a sin for doing it?

What should such people actually confess to?

It is a sin because the Church says it is a sin therefore Catholics are required to confess it. Where the Church does not speak as to the morality as with natural sex changes due to 5-alpha-reductase-2 deficiency syndrome 17-beta-hydroxyseteroid-dehydrogenase-3 deficiency syndrome partial 3-beta-hydroxyseteroid-dehydrogenase deficiency syndrome and other rarer causes then it is up to local clerical authorities to decide whether they are sinful by their very nature or not bearing in mind that the Holy Father has declared that anything which confuses the genders is a threat to Humanity and God’s Creation.

Chromosomes do get changed in some medical therapies and from some rare natural causes but these are not in general associated with the ICD-10 definition of Transsexuality which excludes chromosomal problems. The definition of Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-IV-TR also excludes Intersex conditions but this is widely ignored as few psychologists refer patients to endocrinologists for examination and chromosomal assay before diagnosis.

 

[Carmel_B]

But if people can’t really “change gender” (chromosomes don’t change, etc.), then can there be a sin for doing it?

What should such people actually confess to?

It is a sin because the Church says it is a sin therefore Catholics are required to confess it.

Where the Church does not speak as to the morality as with natural sex changes due to 5-alpha-reductase-2 deficiency syndrome 17-beta-hydroxyseteroid-dehydrogenase-3 deficiency syndrome partial 3-beta-hydroxyseteroid-dehydrogenase deficiency syndrome and other rarer causes then it is up to local clerical authorities to decide whether they are sinful by their very nature or not bearing in mind that the Holy Father has declared that anything which confuses the genders is a threat to Humanity and God’s Creation.

It is important to stress that such people should be treated with compassion and respect even if they are a threat to everyone by their existence such as with contagious disease carriers who must be isolated and their freedoms restricted through no fault of their own. There is no contradiction between these two positions and a contagious disease carrier who deliberately endangers others by walking amongst them commits a sin even if being a carrier is not in itself sinful.

Similarly those afflicted by Intersex conditions including Transsexuality may be called upon to withdraw themselves from society for everyone else’s good and hide their own existence not because they are Gender Confused but because they are dangerously Gender Confusing to others. The only way we can avoid this imposition upon these unfortunate people is to hear and obey the dictates of what the Church decides the sex to be in any particular case regardless of empirical evidence so there is no more confusion. The results if we do not obey without question and instead rely upon the confusion of sex inherent in biological reality can be seen on this thread.

While I am loath to quote an Heretic on the subject he did have some good theological training before he was led astray.
“Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters…We Christians must be different from the philosophers (astronomers) in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity; with our understanding.”
If only Martin Luther the great Heretic had taken his own words to heart and obeyed the words of Holy Mother Church and ignored his own “understanding” the world would have been spared much distress.

We must be different from the natural philosophers or scientists as we call them now and realise that there is truth and there are facts and always follow the truth as determined by Theology which is the queen of sciences.

Chromosomes do get changed in some medical therapies and from some rare natural causes but these are not in general associated with the ICD-10 definition of Transsexuality which excludes chromosomal problems. The definition of Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-IV-TR also excludes Intersex conditions but this is widely ignored as few psychologists refer patients to endocrinologists for examination and chromosomal assay before diagnosis.

 

[Theresa_Frances]

Similarly those afflicted by Intersex conditions including Transsexuality may be called upon to withdraw themselves from society for everyone else’s good and hide their own existence not because they are Gender Confused but because they are dangerously Gender Confusing to others.

When you say “withdraw themselves from society” what do you actually suggest a person should do?

“Dangerously Gender Confusing” How are they dangerous?

The only way we can avoid this imposition upon these unfortunate people is to hear and obey the dictates of what the Church decides the sex to be in any particular case regardless of empirical evidence so there is no more confusion. The results if we do not obey without question and instead rely upon the confusion of sex inherent in biological reality can be seen on this thread.

How does the Church decide what sex a person should be, without ever speaking to that person or reviewing the facts as determined by the person’s therapists?

Do you take into account that biological sex and psychological gender are two different issues?

 

[Carmel_B]

When you say “withdraw themselves from society” what do you actually suggest a person should do?

That would depend upon the circumstances of course. In a small town or village just a normal lifestyle only seeing people other than immediate family or neighbours perhaps once every few years may be sufficient. It has been traditional that in extended families with large houses that people not fit to be seen in public for various reasons lead quiet uncomplicated and virtuous lives in prayer meditation and scholarship. The monastic life is obviously forbidden to them but a cloistered lifestyle as anchorite or anchoress is appropriate.

“Dangerously Gender Confusing” How are they dangerous?

I will quote from the Portman series of ‘Lectures on Violence Perversion and Delinquency’

The Portman Clinic has been applying a psychoanalytic framework to the understanding and treatment of violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent patients since its foundations in the early 1930s. All Portman Clinic patients have crossed the boundary from fantasy and impulse to action – action that defies legal and moral boundaries but that also breaches the body boundary of the victims. Ultimately, the violence underlying most of such violent, perverse and delinquent action also attacks and disturbs the mind of both the victim, be that an individual **or society **and that of the perpetrator…Theoretical underpinnings for the understanding of perversion and violence, questions of risk and ethics and the institutional difficulties which emerge during the care of these patients are presented alongside chapters on clinical work with adults and adolescents, including chapters on pedophilia, the compulsive use of internet pornography and transsexuality. ”

This well respected psychiatric institute defines Transsexuals as intrinsically “violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent” because they victimise society with their condition as do intersexed patients by disturbing the divinely ordained division of male and female as also stated by His Holiness.

Such people as with rapists pedophiles murderers and other “violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent” psychiatric patients must be treated with loving kindness and Christian mercy of course but they must not be allowed to damage others or damage society by inflicting their existence on the rest of us and causing us distress and unease.

How does the Church decide what sex a person should be, without ever speaking to that person or reviewing the facts as determined by the person’s therapists?

The finest theological minds in the Church as divinely inspired and through deep spiritual meditation and education in scripture determine such issues I should imagine. They ask the Almighty for guidance and it is granted.

Do you take into account that biological sex and psychological gender are two different issues?

That hypothesis directly contradicts the Theology of the Body as espoused by His Holiness and his predecessors as well as numerous Catholic bio-ethics foundations. Such “Gender Theory” has been called an attack on the Church by the Holy Father in speeches whose contents appear on the Vatican website.

 

[charlescritt]

How does their personal conviction define the truth.

God created us male and female and called this “good”. Sin brought disorder to the word. This disorder is evident in the physical as wells spriitual.

Each of us suffer some manner of disorder. This is our cross. Christ commands that we pick up our cross and follow Him.

It seems to me that the transgender who modifies there physical appearance goes against God in doing so. Any attempt at marriage after this fact would rightly called invalid, and therefore not sacrametal as is would be a same sex arrangement.

As far as the church and God goes, I think they want everyone to be happy and live in peace. I remember being unhappy about my last name, but I never changed it and I had to look at my parents and realize they had lived with it without remorse. When any of us are born, there is no council, as far as I know of, that asks us what we want to be, where we want to be born and what we want in our DNA Makeup. What the world offers is a society of misfits, where corrections rarely satisfy us completely. A world where virtue has a small chance, but can not be erased as a possibility. The crux of the matter has to do with being loved and we are often our own worst enemies. The church has to be concerned with some sort of status quo and reasonable prudence in order to lead us on a rational path to spirituality. Transgender issues seem to miss the point that God loves us as we are and that has led to some difficulty.
In fact, the reality that God loves us as we are can give rise to many down right ugly scenarios. If I’m dying of cancer without proper medical insurance, should I just refuse treatment and say God loves me as I am. They say the worst of all sins was suicide, because a person deprives everyone living of themselves. so we have to consider our vocation to others as more important than ourselves. Painful as it might be, we can make the largest difference when we live in service for others. That does not mean do whatever they want you to do. It means something mystical, something that is perhaps repugnant at first. There are few prayers that capture what I’m trying to say, perhaps the closest was one recently given to me by Saint Mother Theresa:

            Deliver me O Jesus, from the desire of being loved,
            From the desire of being extolled,
            From the desire of being honored,
            From the desire of being praised,
            From the desire of being preferred, 
            From the desire of being consulted,
            From the desire of being approved,
            From the desire of being popular.
            From the fear of being humiliated,
            From the fear of being despised,
            From the fear of suffering rebukes,
            From the fear of being slandered,
            From the fear of being forgotten,
            From the fear of being wronged,
            From the fear of being ridiculed,
            From the fear of being suspected,
            Amen.

 

[Cherry5]

That would depend upon the circumstances of course. In a small town or village just a normal lifestyle only seeing people other than immediate family or neighbours perhaps once every few years may be sufficient. It has been traditional that in extended families with large houses that people not fit to be seen in public for various reasons lead quiet uncomplicated and virtuous lives in prayer meditation and scholarship. The monastic life is obviously forbidden to them but a cloistered lifestyle as anchorite or anchoress is appropriate.

Interesting view, so people “not fit” to be seen in public should be exiled from society!! for the benefit of Catholics that can not stand the sight of them!

I will quote from the Portman series of ‘Lectures on Violence Perversion and Delinquency’
Quote:
The Portman Clinic has been applying a psychoanalytic framework to the understanding and treatment of violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent patients since its foundations in the early 1930s. All Portman Clinic patients have crossed the boundary from fantasy and impulse to action – action that defies legal and moral boundaries but that also breaches the body boundary of the victims. Ultimately, the violence underlying most of such violent, perverse and delinquent action also attacks and disturbs the mind of both the victim, be that an individual or society and that of the perpetrator…Theoretical underpinnings for the understanding of perversion and violence, questions of risk and ethics and the institutional difficulties which emerge during the care of these patients are presented alongside chapters on clinical work with adults and adolescents, including chapters on pedophilia, the compulsive use of internet pornography and transsexuality. ”

Copied straight (almost) verbatim from the Amazon site amazon.com/Lectures-Violence-Perversion-Delinquency-Portman/dp/1855754959!
Have you really read this book or just quoting the synopsis based on a Google search?

This well respected psychiatric institute defines Transsexuals as intrinsically “violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent” because they victimise society with their condition as do intersexed patients by disturbing the divinely ordained division of male and female as also stated by His Holiness.

To say that Transsexuals are intrinsically “violent” is absurd! you are obviously quoting out of context.

Such people as with rapists pedophiles murderers and other “violent, perverse, criminal and delinquent” psychiatric patients must be treated with loving kindness and Christian mercy of course but they must not be allowed to damage others or damage society by inflicting their existence on the rest of us and causing us distress and unease…

I see very little “loving kindness” in your post.

 

[Carmel_B]

Interesting view, so people “not fit” to be seen in public should be exiled from society!! for the benefit of Catholics that can not stand the sight of them!

Just as it is necessary that some books containing damaging or confusing ideas be suppressed it is necessary that people whose existence causes confusion and distress and damage to others should withdraw from society. This was recognised by many laws within this country until comparatively recently. Until 1974 Chicago had a sensible ordnance that read “No person who is diseased, maimed, mutilated or in any way deformed so as to be an unsightly or disgusting object or improper person to be allowed in or on the public ways or other public places in this city, or shall therein or thereon expose himself to public view, under a penalty of not less than one dollar nor more than fifty dollars for each offense”. While we must treat those with physical and mental deformities with kindness who can say that such laws did not spare the majority of normal people a great deal of distress that they now must endure? So how much worse are those whose existence is to the theologically untrained an apparent contradiction to the carefully crafted Doctrine of the Theology of the Body as espoused and affirmed by the last three Popes? Just as Typhoid carriers through no fault of their own spread physical sickness so were confined for the public good these people’s appearance causes confusion and dissent with Church teaching and is inherently deceptive so should be confined likewise.

Have you really read this book or just quoting the synopsis based on a Google search?

It is a standard text on the subject and accurately reflects the position of the Church and in particular the position expressed about Transsexuality in the letter sent sub secretum to all Bishops on the subject as reported by the Catholic News Service.

Page 192 mirrors the views expressed in the Catholic journal “First Things” by respected advisor to the Holy See on sex Dr Paul McHugh.

“This is followed by the psychiatric profession entering in the ultimate collusion with the psychosis manifest in their insistence that these patients dress up and live in their desired gender role for two years, in order to ascertain how successful the deceptive process can be.”

Dr McHugh wrote:

With these facts in hand I concluded that Hopkins was fundamentally cooperating with a mental illness. We psychiatrists, I thought, would do better to concentrate on trying to fix their minds and not their genitalia.

Dr McHugh’s advice that paedophilic priests could be cured through his particular course of therapy and on no account should co-operation be extended to secular authorities has turned out in retrospect to be unfortunate for all concerned but that does not lessen his credentials as a well-respected theologically sound and conservative member of the psychiatric profession entirely free of “liberal” or “progressive” tendencies.

To further quote from page 191 of the Portman lectures:

“A similarly related ongoing battle is the fight for the trans-sexual to be allowed to change the gender specified in the birth certificate. Again, we are faced with deception.”
…
“A further illustration of the deception would be the possibility arising in the event of both of the aforementioned pieces of legislation. They could result in a man marrying what he presumed to be a woman who had a female passport, a birth certificate declaring him to be female at time of birth, who is taken to be female and an individual whom he believed he could marry and who could be the mother of his children but in reality his wife actually being a man.”

Unfortunately Dr Az Hakeem the author has since recanted his views no doubt due to pressure from Anti-Christian forces.

Perhaps it would be best if you read the book yourself before accusing others of taking things out of context. I will pray for you.