"Perfect Imperfection" and the Problem of Evil

[MysticMissMisty]

Salvete, omnes!

(Hmm. For some reason, I seem to be in a more “philosophical” mood. Second post in this forum today.)

Are the following lines of thinking completely heretical?:
"Be there no tears of joy when the heart feels no pain." – Miriam Stockley
Using this quote from a song lyric to express the basic idea that we would not be able, at least in this life, to fully appreciate the wonders of joy without an experience of pain. The deeper our pain, the greater our joy. (I think I briefly alluded to this notion in another post, though, there, it would’ve quickly gone OT if I were to have expanded on it.) On a related note…
Does not the presence of evil allow us more fully to experience the wonder/joy of love expressed both on its own and as a response to evil?

And, therefore…
Perhaps, PERHAPS, this may be the, or, at least, one of the reasons God permitted sin to enter the world?

Again, if this is not completely heretical thinking, have there been any theologians (either early or modern) who have written along these lines? I’d be curious to know who they are/even to read their writings!

Thanks much!

 

[hicetnunc]

HI Mystic;

Yes, I also seem to be in a very philosophical mood today: this is my second reply!

I like where you’re going with this, but I do see one thing that flags up for me:

Evil has no presence; nor does sin, strictly speaking (except by way of metaphor),”enter the world”. It’s true we sometimes use that sort of language, but it obscures the reality that sin and evil have no being as such; they are not things, but the absence of things. Evil, as Augustine and Aquinas point out, are privations of being. A s such, a privation cannot cause anything; the only thing that can cause something is that which has being. Only good can cause (in two different ways) both good and evil. Evil cannot cause joy; only the good and true can cause joy.

God of course, in his infinite Power, can bring good from evil. But God does not “allow” evil in the positive sense of willing it; God does not will either sin or evil. God can only will the good, never the evil or sin. Given his Will is for the good, he wills that good should prevail despite the privation of being, which is sin and evil. We experience Joy in spite of suffering, not because of it in that sense. When we feel great joy after suffering, it is not the suffering that is causing the joy, but the restoration of bodily or spiritual integrity; it’s a bit like a wedding: when you meet your perfect spouse, you are filled with joy. Evil and suffering keep us from this spouse; when we are reunited with it, we experience joy. Our joy is caused by finding our ultimate good, especially when we have been estranged from it.

Many thanks for the thought-provoking question!

 

[MysticMissMisty]

HI Mystic;

Must’ve been something in the air that day.

Seriously, though, thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I’m always up for hearing others’ responses to this as well!

Definitely something to chew on.

 

[MysticMissMisty]

Yes, I also seem to be in a very philosophical mood today: this is my second reply!

Must’ve been something in the air that day.

Seriously, though, thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I’m always up for hearing others’ responses to this as well!

Definitely something to chew on.

 

[wmw]

I believe that God was willing to give us perfection and He did so to Adam.

Adam rejected being so protected and dependent on God, and rebelled like we often do as adolescents do their parents.

God granted Adam and the whole human race this independence by setting up so many privations and with it the lack of grace to remain in the presence of God.

God’s actions were a just punishment for the Original Sin; so, even the allowance of privations must be justified when the power to restore them is within a being power.

God is merciful and grants us His Son as a means back to Himself. Why such a “eye of the needle” restoration? I believe that He sees the experience gain of us suffering through the world of so many privations. There is much advantage to our everlasting existence that we escape the peril of hell and suffer through the evils of this world; so, for a time we are set lower than the Angles to eventually be adopted heirs with Christ and set higher than Angles. God works the evil to eventually be a better good than if the evil had never existed. Demons, fallen Angles, must also be part of the evil necessary for our formation.

Though I’m astounded at the degree of evil that the world must have to reach our hearts and teach us these lessons. We truly must have hearts of stone to require them to be so harsh, but He has told us that indeed, that is the case.

 

[fhansen]

Salvete, omnes!

(Hmm. For some reason, I seem to be in a more “philosophical” mood. Second post in this forum today.)

Are the following lines of thinking completely heretical?:
"Be there no tears of joy when the heart feels no pain." – Miriam Stockley
Using this quote from a song lyric to express the basic idea that we would not be able, at least in this life, to fully appreciate the wonders of joy without an experience of pain. The deeper our pain, the greater our joy. (I think I briefly alluded to this notion in another post, though, there, it would’ve quickly gone OT if I were to have expanded on it.) On a related note…
Does not the presence of evil allow us more fully to experience the wonder/joy of love expressed both on its own and as a response to evil?

And, therefore…
Perhaps, PERHAPS, this may be the, or, at least, one of the reasons God permitted sin to enter the world?

Again, if this is not completely heretical thinking, have there been any theologians (either early or modern) who have written along these lines? I’d be curious to know who they are/even to read their writings!

Thanks much!

Yes, I agree. While God did not author or desire evil, He nonetheless allowed it, to bring about an even greater good. And that good, IMO, are human wills that’ve come to freely align with His will, as we’ve come to experience and reject evil while embracing good, like Prodigals running from the pigsty. Aquinas supported the idea that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil means that, by eating of the fruit, man entered a reality where good and evil are literally known, the Hebrew word for knowledge here generally used to mean direct knowledge, gained by experience IOW. In Eden neither were known because good was the norm, God having created nothing else. In this world we know both good and evil, where the two are brought into focus by contrasting with each other.