Perfection of the Universe

[CrossofChrist]

Does the perfection of the universe require the perfection of each individual “thing” (for lack of a better term) that is in the universe? If not, how is the universe to be perfected in Christ at the second coming? If so, then does that mean those in hell have attained some kind of natural perfection apart from their supernatural perfection, even if not the supernatural perfection they were called to?

I would prefer it if this was discussed among those who agree with Catholic doctrine. Thank you.

 

[BeingSaved]

I don’t know if anyone else is awake, I agree with the Bible so there is much you and I agree on, but I do not know much C. doctr. yet,

Acts 3:21
19Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

restoration of all things may apply to the perfecting you spoke of

 

[CrossofChrist]

I suppose maybe God could perfect those in hell who don’t attain their end of the beatific vision in the transformation of the world in the Second Coming, since all things are possible with God. They would just have to be transformed to have a lesser perfection than what they were made for. Transformed to serve and glorify God and the Church Triumphant, while not participating in the glory themselves, and achieving their new end in that.

Just speculation on my part. Hopefully you guys can provide more speculation.

 

[hildegaard]

Does the perfection of the universe require the perfection of each individual “thing” (for lack of a better term) that is in the universe? If not, how is the universe to be perfected in Christ at the second coming? If so, then does that mean those in hell have attained some kind of natural perfection apart from their supernatural perfection, even if not the supernatural perfection they were called to?

I would prefer it if this was discussed among those who agree with Catholic doctrine. Thank you.

I would say the overall make-up of the universe (i.e., physical laws, structure of the cosmos, nature of matter, biology, cognition, etc) would be viewed as perfect. Beings (i.e., those who can reason) can choose to oppose God, and their actions probably can affect the order of the universe local to them, and perhaps with increasing technological power, even beyond them. The angelic rebellion may have messed up cosmology initially at least, not sure. With the coming advent of the New Earth and New Heaven, I suppose all will be reordered, and all opposing souls eliminated (chaff seperated from the wheat) from having access (or at least direct access) to the ordered resultant state (as in the current state or covenant, satan has been cast bound into the bottomless pit, and has no direct contact to God or man).

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If so, then does that mean those in hell have attained some kind of natural perfection apart from their supernatural perfection, even if not the supernatural perfection they were called to?

This is speculative, but I think perfect justice exists in hell, so the damned are participating in perfect justice as their own particular type of perfection.

As we all know, there are many “devils” living among us who will never know the inside of a prison. But perfect justice will prevail sooner or later. Perfect mercy is, after all, conditional. We have to repent before we can be given the mercy of forgiveness.

 

[oldcelt]

This is speculative, but I think perfect justice exists in hell, so the damned are participating in perfect justice as their own particular type of perfection.

As we all know, there are many “devils” living among us who will never know the inside of a prison. But perfect justice will prevail sooner or later. Perfect mercy is, after all, conditional. We have to repent before we can be given the mercy of forgiveness.

As you admitted …speculative.

 

[anixx]

As you admitted …speculative.

But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:…]

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:…] And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

Mt 25,31-34; 41; 46

Perfect justice isn’t pure speculative, Jesus refers to it quite often in his gospel. Everyone will receive according to their will. The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God, while the cursed will be thrown into everlasting fire. This is perfect justice. God won’t force us to love him, and an unrepentant sin, since it hurts the infinite majesty of God, requires an infinite punishment. For the justice of repented sins, there is purgatory. So, perfection of the world will come in form of perfect justice, when all sins are payed for, in one form or another. Purgatory will end, everything will have been acquitted for. The just receive the eternal reward and the unjust receive the eternal punishment. Order will be reestablished.

 

[schaeffer]

This appears to presuppose that you know what true perfection is and would recognize it if you saw it.

Maybe the Universe is perfect and you do not have the ability to see or understand it, and maybe that too is part of perfection.

 

[anixx]

This appears to presuppose that you know what true perfection is and would recognize it if you saw it.

Maybe the Universe is perfect and you do not have the ability to see or understand it, and maybe that too is part of perfection.

Well, only God is perfect. Creation is not, it is imperfect. Only through Christ will creation be raised to it’s perfection.

 

[ynotzap]

Food for thought:

Since Potency and Act are part of our nature, the movement from Potency to Act is a movement to perfection. eg. we, are born with potential for maturity, (perfection) to be in Act is the progress to perfection, maturity This is the condition of all creation.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Does the perfection of the universe require the perfection of each individual “thing” (for lack of a better term) that is in the universe? If not, how is the universe to be perfected in Christ at the second coming? If so, then does that mean those in hell have attained some kind of natural perfection apart from their supernatural perfection, even if not the supernatural perfection they were called to?

I would prefer it if this was discussed among those who agree with Catholic doctrine. Thank you.

What prompted me to ask this was thinking about something St. Thomas said:

“Perfection consists in the attaining to something else as the end.”

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t know, but following the lines of reasoning here from my perspective, I would say that:
Jesus, the Word incarnate manifesting God’s love, is Centre of Creation.
All history, past and present, revolves around this Reality that would bring us into loving communion with God.
At the end of time, when all has been done, the perfection, the outcome, known to God in eternity will apparently be known to all.
All our decisions and ultimately whether we have chosen for or against Love, will be revealed in its glorious splendor, within the totality that comprises all existence.
Something like that.

So, the “perfection of the universe” would require “the perfection of each individual thing”, in that each of us becomes whom we have chosen to become.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Does the perfection of the universe require the perfection of each individual “thing” (for lack of a better term) that is in the universe? If not, how is the universe to be perfected in Christ at the second coming? If so, then does that mean those in hell have attained some kind of natural perfection apart from their supernatural perfection, even if not the supernatural perfection they were called to?

I would prefer it if this was discussed among those who agree with Catholic doctrine. Thank you.

The answer is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Look for it.

Linus2nd

 

[ynotzap]

A thought: Those in hell have attained perfect justice. They are not in hell by accident. Their end was achieved by their intent They strove for it and they attained their end

 

[ynotzap]

Rom 8:20-24 For creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope “that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God”

How is creation as slave to corruption? We know in humanity, and it’s conduct, it’s morals is a slave to corruption in the spiritual sense. And we know the remedy to this corruption, being a child of God.

How is the material world a slave to corruption. Decay, illness, death, disease, draught, erosion, an ever existing turmoil in nature
With the final coming of Christ there will be a New Wold, a New Creation