Perplexing Scripture

[Genesis315]

Hey everyone. We got some flyers today after Mass that advertise our next picnic (we have picnics after the Latin Mass every so often). Anyway, this next one will be to celebrate the Feast of St. Jerome in a couple weeks. Besides the usual activities, in honor of St. Jerome we’re going to have some Biblical discussion on some perplexing passages too. I’ve read them over and have written some thoughts. I thought you guys might want to look at them. I’d love to read your thoughts on them (one, some or all ) :

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John 7:2-10

1. Was Jesus lying to His Apostles when He said in verse 8, “As for you, go up to the feast, but I do not go up to the feast, for My time is not yet fulfilled,” when in verse 10 it is stated, “But as soon as His brethren had gone up to the feast, then he went up, not publicly, but as it were privately”?
2. Why did Jesus say to His Apostles, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always at hand”?
3. Why did Our Lord go up to Jerusalem secretly?

Matthew 24:34, 36

1. What did Our Lord mean when he said in verse 34, “This generation shall not pass away till all these things be done”? (referring to His second coming and the events which will surround it).
2. Why does Our Lord say, “No one knows the day or the hour [of His glorious coming again in judgment], not even the angels of Heaven, but only the Father”? Does the Son not know?

Matthew 25:29

What did Our Lord mean when He said, “For to everyone who has shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who does not have, even that which he seems to have shall be taken away”?

Matthew 26:5

“[The high priests and elders] consulted together that by the subtlety they might apprehend Jesus and put him to death. But they said: ‘Not on the feast day [Pasch], lest perhaps there should be a tumult among the people.’” Did the high priests stick to this decision about the feast day? If not, why not?

Matthew 27:26-29

Is there a mystical sense to the sufferings and humiliations of Our Lord se forth in these verses (crowning with thorns, etc.)?

Mark 2:21-22

What did Our Lord mean when He said: “No one sews a patch of raw cloth on an old garment; else the new patch tears away from the old, and a worse rent is made. And no one pours new wine into old wine skins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is spilt, and the skins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into fresh wine skins”?

 

[TEME525]

Genesis, hopefully I won’t ramble on so as to confuse you but I will do my best to keep it simple.

In regards to your scripture passage from John I would like to approach it from two view points. The first will be taken from the works of those who attemp to find the historical Jesus,because here there can be some valuable insight. The second is more of a personal reflection.

From what I have studied about the historical Jesus, we know that while in Galilee His ministry met with extreme opposition from the three most powerful groups there were. These being the Saducees, the Pharisees and Herod. The Gospels are pretty clear about opposition of the Pharisees and Saducees and that Jesus was forced to go into hiding several times because of their plots against Him. It was also in Galilee that Jesus met rejection from what could be the majority of his followers (John 6). It seems he wasn’t as popular as the movies would have us believe.

Herod’s execution of John clearly demonstrated the perilous position Jesus was in, in that we know from Josepheus Herod liked the “Quiet Life” meaning no oposition at all. John’s ministry clearly challenged Herod and Herod had him executed. Jesus’ minisrty was closely related to John’s and the Gospels stress this (remember some even thought Jesus was John who had returned and I believe Herod himself harbored these fears.

I bring this up because from a human perspective it was quite clear why Jesus was keeping a low profile and with those three groupes out to kill Him (just as Herod killed John) going to Jerusalem with His disciples would have attracted unwanted attention.

This brings me partly to His instructions that His time had not come. Jesus was driven by His vocation of declaring that the Kingdom of God was actively present and in a unique way in Him.
Therefore, He wasn’t going to do anything to compromise His Ministry. Also being a Jew of His time He was totally immerse in the Scriptures and from His knowledge He knew that Jerusalem was to be His final destination. Also from the scriptures He knew about the fate of the prophets and Jerusalem but He also seems to have know the He was destined to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah’s suffering servant and because He wasn’t about to compromise His message He knew it would lead Him to His death which had to be in Jerusalem. Therefore, He had to get to Jerusalem even if it meant almost sneeking there - being there was everything.

This is why Jesus had told His Apostles His time hadn’t come, it could only come in Jerusalem.

But for His Apostles, if you study all the Gospel passages concerning to be a true follower of Christ one had to be open and accept the Presence of the Kingdom of God amoung them there and now and always be ready for the Kingdom to manifest it self (Like a theif in the night) Consider all the parables of Jesus concerning the readiness of His followers, Matthew’s Gospel is especially poignant on this point.

So this, I believe is why He sent His Apostles on ahead of Himself with the command to be ready.

 

[TEME525]

Concerning Matthew 24 I tend to go with those who take a Low Christology, that is their starting point is Jesus of History (I haven’t, however forgotten the Christ of Faith). From this view point and other passages as well as the Church’s belief, during Apostolic Times, that Christ second Coming was immenent (read Paul’s letters) I think that Jesus in His humanity (remember He is Fully Human and as such finite and the finte cannot grasp the infinite) Jesus truely did not know.

However, another point about this, it really wasn’t all that important
for Jesus and He expressed this often to His followers. What was truely important wasn’t “WHEN” it was going to take place. Rather, what was utterly important was that His followers understood that it “WAS” going to happen and they should always be prepared for the second coming no matter when it should take place.

I think we can see the wisdom of Jesus’ command in light of what happened to the Church in Thessolonica and Corinth. In the former people stopped living their everyday lives and some actually just sat about waiting. In Corinth, many of the people’s faith was shaken when they learned that eyewitnesses to the Resurrection (the 500 Paul refers to) were dying and we already had experienced the myterdom of Stephen and I believe James.
So I can really see the wisdom of Jesus, “it’s not when it takes place, rather, are you ready when it does. And if I don’t know how can you so always be prepared” (my paraphrase ofcoarse).

 

[TEME525]

Genesis, in regards to Matthew 25 & 26, first you should read the chapters proceeding those two, starting with the Beatitudes. Again these lay out the foundation of the message of Jesus and the Kingdom Of God(Heaven) and the demands Jesus makes in regards to our response to this reality which has to be a response of the whole person - a total metanoia and then a whole new life.
About the passage concerning those who have little, remember the context of the verse. It was about ones receiving the Talents.
Again, look at what the peoson who received little did? This goes against everything Jesus had spoken about in previous chapters - Total giving of Self to the Kingdom of Heaven - even if it is, in your own eyes little (I think of Paul’s teachings in 1 Cor. where he draws the analogy of the Church as the body of Christ - each member has a purpose in the body’s function, and just as each part of the body must function properly for the body to be healthy so to each member of Christ Mystical Body must live out his life to the fullest in response to the Kingdom of God.

 

[TEME525]

Genesis,

I believe what many have said before, that is, Christ understood Himself to be the fulfillment of Isaiah’s Suffering Servent. And it is clear in the writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers this is how the Church has understood a major part of Christ’s life and mission. Therefore to fully understand Matthew 27, study Is. 53.

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

I’ll just add a few of my thoughts.

John 7:2-10

1. Was Jesus lying to His Apostles when He said in verse 8, “As for you, go up to the feast, but I do not go up to the feast, for My time is not yet fulfilled,” when in verse 10 it is stated, “But as soon as His brethren had gone up to the feast, then he went up, not publicly, but as it were privately”?

This is a lot simpler than what other people have said, but here’s my take on it: Jesus said He would not go up to the feast because His time had not yet been fulfilled. When the time was fulfilled, His reason for not going was removed, and so He went. He had not been lying. It would be like if I said to some of my friends, “Go eat dinner without me, but I will not go to dinner, for my homework is not yet done.” If I joined them later when my homework was done, it wouldn’t mean I had been lying before.

1. Why did Jesus say to His Apostles, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always at hand”?

My Bible says that He said this to His brothers (relatives), so they weren’t necessarily followers of His. They had just encouraged Him to go to Judea in order to be widely known for His works. I think Jesus is contrasting His mission to their petty desire for fame. If all we want is to be known, we will always find opportunities to do so, so our time will always be at hand. Jesus, in contrast, had an important mission, and important missions need to be planned and carried out at the proper time.

1. Why did Our Lord go up to Jerusalem secretly?

Because He didn’t want to be killed at that time.

Matthew 24:34, 36

1. What did Our Lord mean when he said in verse 34, “This generation shall not pass away till all these things be done”? (referring to His second coming and the events which will surround it).

Well, Jesus talks about a lot of things in the surrounding passages, so although He could be referring to His second coming, He could also be referring to the destruction of the Temple, or even to “all these things” that had to be done in order to prepare for His second coming (His death and resurrection, founding the Church, etc.).

1. Why does Our Lord say, “No one knows the day or the hour [of His glorious coming again in judgment], not even the angels of Heaven, but only the Father”? Does the Son not know?

There’s a thread on this here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=76454

Matthew 25:29

What did Our Lord mean when He said, “For to everyone who has shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who does not have, even that which he seems to have shall be taken away”?

As someone else pointed out, this is in the context of the parable of the talents. If we let the gifts God give us stagnate instead of using them, they will be taken away.

Matthew 26:5

“[The high priests and elders] consulted together that by the subtlety they might apprehend Jesus and put him to death. But they said: ‘Not on the feast day [Pasch], lest perhaps there should be a tumult among the people.’” Did the high priests stick to this decision about the feast day? If not, why not?

It seems to me that they didn’t stick to it. I guess the reason why was that Judas agreed to betray Jesus. The opportunity was probably something they didn’t expect to come again, so they seized it.

 

[Genesis315]

Wow, thanks guys, those are some great answers

 

[Mystophilus]

Matthew 24:34, 36

1. What did Our Lord mean when he said in verse 34, “This generation shall not pass away till all these things be done”? (referring to His second coming and the events which will surround it).

“genea”, the word translated as “generation”, can also mean ‘tribe’, ‘nation’ or ‘epoch’. In other words, he could well have been telling his audience that the world had entered its final phase, and that there would not be another phase, or another revelation, after him.

1. Why does Our Lord say, “No one knows the day or the hour [of His glorious coming again in judgment], not even the angels of Heaven, but only the Father”? Does the Son not know?

Just as Jesus was limited in his physical scope by being Incarnated, he also seems to have been limited in his absolute power. I think that it is, therefore, quite possible that he did not know at the time. However, the statement does not strictly need to exclude the speaker. Were I to say, “No one cares what I want,” the apparently all-inclusive statement would necessarily exclude me from its scope.

Matthew 25:29

What did Our Lord mean when He said, “For to everyone who has shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who does not have, even that which he seems to have shall be taken away”?

The parable seems to me to promote a conscientious work ethic; whoever has (a profit) will be rewarded, but whoever does not will be punished.

Mark 2:21-22

What did Our Lord mean when He said: “No one sews a patch of raw cloth on an old garment; else the new patch tears away from the old, and a worse rent is made. And no one pours new wine into old wine skins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is spilt, and the skins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into fresh wine skins”?

He is telling the Pharisees why his disciples do not fast in accordance with Jewish custom (not the Law). I suspect that, here, the wineskins are metaphorical representations of the minds of the people, and the wine is the teaching. Under this reading, he is saying that the acceptance of the new teaching requires a different mindset from the old, which is simply incapable of accepting a new viewpoint (cf. Luke 5:39; “no one after drinking the old wine wants the new”).