Personal Dilemma

[mvh18]

I consider myself a religious person, and a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I also call myself a Catholic, having been baptized and confirmed within the Catholic Church. However just recently I’ve started to question my Catholicism, as I’ve found myself questioning the Popes ruling and teachings on several occasions. Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

 

[Charioteer]

I consider myself a religious person, and a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I also call myself a Catholic, having been baptized and confirmed within the Catholic Church. However just recently I’ve started to question my Catholicism, as I’ve found myself questioning the Popes ruling and teachings on several occasions. Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

That’s simply not true. Sadly, Christianity is horribly fractured. No, you need agree with everything the Pope “teaches” in order to be a Catholic, but you had better not dismiss them either. As sinners we should always be trying to do what is right. As long as we don’t stop trying we are on the right track. The moment we think we know more than the Church is the moment we really enter trouble.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I consider myself a religious person, and a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I also call myself a Catholic, having been baptized and confirmed within the Catholic Church. However just recently I’ve started to question my Catholicism, as I’ve found myself questioning the Popes ruling and teachings on several occasions. Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

I am sorry to hear that you are having some doubts. There are many who can speak more eloquently than I can, but I have to try.

First, it is not the Pope’s rulings on anything that keep us separated from other branches of Christianity. They left on their own. The Orthodox split in 1054 (I think) mostly because of papal authority, but also for something else that I can’t remember right now. But, they are still in communion with the Pope. The churches that were formed as a result of the Reformation were started by man who through self-appointed authority protested Jesus’ Church and founded their own. Read some history on the sale of indulgences and how the Church had already begun to fix the problems prior to the Council of Trent. The Reformation didn’t need to happen.

Among the twelve Apostles, St. Peter is clearly the head. Matthew 16:13-19 - “And I tell you, you are Peter [Rock] and on thie rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.”

Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, which means “rock,” Our Lord says this rock will be God’s way of preserving the Church from corruption until the end of time. Our Lord knew that St. Peter would be dead by AD70. Therefore Christ must have intended the office of Peter to last until the end of time. St. Peter is given the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus is drawing this image of “the keys” form Is 22:19-22. From this context, at least three concepts are included 1. The keys are a symbol of the authority given to the chief official - the Prime Minister - of the Kingdom of David. 2. The Prime Minister is a father-figure. Remember, ‘Pope’ comes from the Italian word for “Papa” - father. 3. The office impies dynastic succession. The office of Prime Minister continued as long as the Kingdom of David cointinued. Catholics believe that Christ is the King, and that the Pope is the “Prime Minister” of His heavenly kingdom, the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church, the Pope is His earthly representative.

The keys are an awesome gift. To nobody else does Christ give this ruling power. Why would Jesus give this trememdous authority to St. Peter and not intend for it to be passed on? If the early Christians needed an authoritative leader, later Christians would need one even more.

Although all the Apostles as a group were given the power “to bind and to loose” in Mt 18:18, St. Peter received this power individually at the time he was given the keys. There is more, but this should be a good start.

It is hard living in today’s society where the Protestant influence is so strong. OSAS sure would be easier than “working out salvation with fear and trembling” and persevering till the end.

The Pope has used His power only twice in 2,000 years. When something becomes dogma, it is always something that has always been taught and believed by the Church, but has needed to be reasserted to correct error. It doesn’t mean that it is new.

Do some research. A lot of tradition in the Catholic Church is inherited from our Jewish heritage. Jesus founded a Church. I don’t know why He chose to do it the way He did, but He chose to use Peter and the Apostles, regular, sinful men, to do His Will. He gave them His Authority and promise to guide and protect His Church until the end of time. Martin Luther and the churches of the Reformation of the last 1500’s weren’t around then. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church. Man is sinful, and can and will make mistakes, but Christ established His Church, giving it His promise, to go forth and teach His Word. Christ will not let His Church teach error. Through the 2000 history of the Church, not one teaching has changed in matters of faith and morals. Jesus didn’t say “You have all Truth with you now.” He said, “The Truth will be revealed to you.” He revealed most everything. But there is some information, that over time a deeper understanding has been realized. The basic teaching was already there.

Hopefully this is a good start.

God Bless you and your family.

 

[CristusRex]

Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

1. It is not the Pope’s ruling what separates us from other “branches of Christianity”. The best demonstration is to watch at other “branches” and to conclude there are very far to be united. Indeed, because Peter has the office to maintain the unity, all departure and reject of his holy authority end in further separatinon and further schism. Once, the “branch” established by Martin Luther was one. How many are them now ?
2. We have to agree with whatever the Pope says regarding faith and morals, in his official position as head of the Church. It can be legitimate to have “difficulties” in our understanding, but not doubts or disagreements. To have difficulties is very different with to have doubts. For example, I have difficulties in understanding how God is three persons while there are only one God. The difficulty arise because this concept cannot be comprised by my poor brain, but I do not dare to put in doubt this article of faith. Maybe, some day I will understand better. If not in this life, maybe in the next one.

 

[SC_Peach]

Jesus changes Simon’s name to Peter, which means “rock,” Our Lord says this rock will be God’s way of preserving the Church from corruption until the end of time. Our Lord knew that St. Peter would be dead by AD70. Therefore Christ must have intended the office of Peter to last until the end of time. St. Peter is given the “keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus is drawing this image of “the keys” form Is 22:19-22. From this context, at least three concepts are included 1. The keys are a symbol of the authority given to the chief official - the Prime Minister - of the Kingdom of David. 2. The Prime Minister is a father-figure. Remember, ‘Pope’ comes from the Italian word for “Papa” - father. 3. The office impies dynastic succession. The office of Prime Minister continued as long as the Kingdom of David cointinued. Catholics believe that Christ is the King, and that the Pope is the “Prime Minister” of His heavenly kingdom, the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church, the Pope is His earthly representative.

The keys are an awesome gift. To nobody else does Christ give this ruling power. Why would Jesus give this trememdous authority to St. Peter and not intend for it to be passed on? If the early Christians needed an authoritative leader, later Christians would need one even more.

As someone that is just getting their feet wet in the Church, let me say that although I learned of Peter being the rock of the Church, I never knew about the keys. You explained that so well.
Protestant influence IS strong. Like I explained to my husband and Mom, if you clear your mind of what you were taught as a Protestant (particularly, any of the Pentecostal denoms) and don’t take the Biblical backing of these scriptures out of context, you can see the Truth. God led me to the Church, but it was up to ME with His guidance of course, to learn the Truth.
I thank you kindly for a lesson today:hug1:

God Bless!

Kathy

 

[cam100]

First, it is not the Pope’s rulings on anything that keep us separated from other branches of Christianity. They left on their own. The Orthodox split in 1054 (I think) mostly because of papal authority, but also for something else that I can’t remember right now. But, they are still in communion with the Pope.

I’m not sure if you meant to say that last sentence, or if it’s a typo. The Orthodox are NOT in communion with the Pope.

The Pope has used His power only twice in 2,000 years.

That’s a common misconception. While there is no actual list of infallible declarations, theologians generally agree that there have been quite a few. Infallibility, in the usual sense, refers to declarations of truths revealed by God.

However, the Pope’s power extends to disciplinary actions as well. For example, most of what is in Canon Law is not infallible, but it is still binding. The Pope has the final say in disciplinary matters of the Church. These can be changed at a later date, unlike infallible declarations which pertain to unchangeable truths.

There are also other issues that can be considered “teachings” of a particular Pope, but not official teachings of the Church. We must consent to official teachings, but we don’t have to agree with everything that the Pope says. Sometimes it can be hard to discern between the two.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I’m not sure if you meant to say that last sentence, or if it’s a typo. The Orthodox are NOT in communion with the Pope.

That’s a common misconception. While there is no actual list of infallible declarations, theologians generally agree that there have been quite a few. Infallibility, in the usual sense, refers to declarations of truths revealed by God.

However, the Pope’s power extends to disciplinary actions as well. For example, most of what is in Canon Law is not infallible, but it is still binding. The Pope has the final say in disciplinary matters of the Church. These can be changed at a later date, unlike infallible declarations which pertain to unchangeable truths.

There are also other issues that can be considered “teachings” of a particular Pope, but not official teachings of the Church. We must consent to official teachings, but we don’t have to agree with everything that the Pope says. Sometimes it can be hard to discern between the two.

Thank you for the correction. I meant to say not in communion. I was then going to explain that they are in unity with most everything else. I guess since I didn’t say “not” my brain didn’t finish the thought. Thank you for pointing that out.

You know, I hadn’t considered disciplinary actions and Canon Law’s restrictions and guidelines. - that they are not considered dogma. They are the Church’s guidelines to keep us where we need to be. Also, I guess disciplines and devotions would be something else that non-Catholics don’t understand.

I guess I am confused on the number of infallible declarations then. I thought the Pope has used the power twice. I know it is very small number though. It seems that “the pope runnin’ around making rules all the time” is just such a prevelent belief among non-Catholics. Jesus didn’t give us much wiggle room. We are to walk the narrow path and many don’t like that. I love it that the Church gives us the way to live that narrow path and stay in Christ. Since Christ gave His Deposit of Faith to His Church, we should believe in the teachings and Traditions as taught by the Apostles themselves.

 

[FCEGM]

I consider myself a religious person, and a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I also call myself a Catholic, having been baptized and confirmed within the Catholic Church. However just recently I’ve started to question my Catholicism, as I’ve found myself questioning the Popes ruling and teachings on several occasions. Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

Hi, mvh

Others have clarified for you that the Holy Father’s teaching on Faith and Morals is what all Catholics are to believe and reflect in their lives and that it is not the Pope’s “ruling” that distinguishes Catholicism from the Orthodox Churches or the denominations. What you need to consider now regarding those issues which are presently causing you difficulty is whether you have the theological, scriptural and philosophical background, to say nothing of the spiritual, that allows you to judge correctly against the teaching of Christ’s Vicar. It can be that our own proclivities towards disobedience in mind and/or body in one or more areas, make us think that we are right, so he must - OF COURSE! - be wrong. Many find that after prayer and study of the problematic areas that the Holy Fathers of past and present were right after all. I hope you will find that this will do the same for you.

 

[dixibehr]

The Orthodox split in 1054 (I think) mostly because of papal authority, but also for something else that I can’t remember right now. But, they are still in communion with the Pope.<<

The Orthodox would certainly be surprised at the idea that “they are still in communion with the Pope.”

What do you mean by this?

 

[Always_For_Him]

The Orthodox split in 1054 (I think) mostly because of papal authority, but also for something else that I can’t remember right now. But, they are still in communion with the Pope.<<

Sorry about that. I already addressed this in post #7. I don’t know what I was thinking. I should have re-read it again before I sent it. BIG MISTAKE.

 

[mvh18]

So in essence, the Pope is simply reiterating what was already taught by Jesus? I guess my dilemma is more concerned with relatively modern issues that weren’t at hand at Jesus’s time. For example, you guys may have seen my thread in one of the other sub forums, dealing with genetic engineering. Obviously, this issue was not around Jesus’s time, so the Pope is interpreting the Bible in the way he thinks it should be when he condemns GE. (Here is the link, it’s from a while back so I’m not sure how legitimate it actually is, however lets run with it for arguments sake , fooddemocracy.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/pope-declares-genetic-engineering-a-mortal-sin/).

What happens when if disagree with the Pope on this? If I simply refuse to see how something so beneficial to human life could be considered a sin, does that make me a bad Catholic?

This argument is purely hypothetical.

Thanks for any help

 

[thiscatholickid]

I consider myself a religious person, and a firm believer in Jesus Christ. I also call myself a Catholic, having been baptized and confirmed within the Catholic Church. However just recently I’ve started to question my Catholicism, as I’ve found myself questioning the Popes ruling and teachings on several occasions. Because it is the Pope’s ruling that separates us from other branches of Christianity, does the fact I don’t agree with some his teachings make me a bad Catholic? Do I need to agree with whatever the Pope says to be a Catholic?

Any help/thoughts would be much appreciated.

God bless

You should heed not just what a Pope says, but what Bishops and Priests say. They are our spiritual fathers. However, heeding is not neccesarily agreeing. Rather, understand why such people said what they said, understand the underlying theology, and see how it applies to your life.

You say you are a religious person, just know that the Pope exists because such a position is required. There must be a central authority in our Church, and God in his foresight designed one. But try not to get bogged down by theological jargon, because trust me, there is a whole lot of it. When we use computer’s we have no idea about all the complex actions taking place inside the box. But we do understand what computer’s are there for, and what they can do for our lives.

Sometimes, it is better to just trust in the engineers behind our religion. Know that they have gotten us through 2000 years of peace and turmoil. The Pope and his Bishops know what they are doing, so concentrate on the ‘End-User’ experience.

Go to the Mass, pray to God, receive the sacraments and enjoy life. These are the pillars of the faith and the path to salvation.

And if you MUST know all the details, I’m sure there are qualified people on these forums helping you out.

 

[diggerdomer]

So in essence, the Pope is simply reiterating what was already taught by Jesus?

Not exactly, and neither is the Church. Meaning–while everything the Church teaches is understood to be consistent with the revelation of Jesus, it’s hardly “reiterating” (e.g. did Jesus ever say anything about embryonic stem cell research, global warming, Darwin’s theory of evolution, etc.?).

vh1so the Pope is interpreting the Bible in the way he thinks it should be when he condemns GE.

It’s not just about the Pope interpreting the Bible, but about the whole Church (which, of course, has the Pope at its hierarchical center). And it’s not only about interpreting the Bible, but interpreting all of Revelation (i.e. Tradition plus Scripture).

What happens when if disagree with the Pope on this? If I simply refuse to see how something so beneficial to human life could be considered a sin, does that make me a bad Catholic?

Excellent question. Tough answer, though, I think. It’s complicated imho. First, we have to understand what the specific issue is that potential disagreement exists on, and what about and how the Church teaches that issue. Meaning, for instance, Popes (as with all Bishops and other parts of the Church) have various “levels” of teaching–all the way from infallibility to personal opinion. So, first, explore and find out exactly what “level” a given issue is being taught at from the Church.

Next, once the weight of Church teaching is properly understood, make sure you understand the Church’s reasons for teaching it. Pray, study, reflect, talk, etc.

Actually, I’d probably reverse those. First: study, pray, reflect, talk, etc. about the issue itself. Then, move to placing that specific teaching in the context of all Church teaching.

If, at this point, you’re still unsure, there might be a difference of what one means by “disagree” as contrasted with “disobey.” One may disagree with a certain teaching and yet not disobey it. That is likely a better situation than disagreeing with AND disobeying a given teaching.

If, in the end, you find it impossible to agree with and obey a teaching, do not despair. Hang in there. The Church teaches that we cannot disobey our conscience (though it equally strongly teaches that such consciences must be properly formed…and that’s a tough road to follow if one disagrees with and disobeys a given teaching after thinking one’s conscience is properly formed…but it happens so again don’t despair).

Hope this helps.

 

[Ohiomom]

What happens when if disagree with the Pope on this? If I simply refuse to see how something so beneficial to human life could be considered a sin, does that make me a bad Catholic?

This argument is purely hypothetical.

Thanks for any help

It also can help to read some of they encyclicals and look at them in the light of history. Our parish right to life group had a series where we read encylicals on human life. We read Lumen Gentium and I got goosbumps. It was flat out prophetic. It talks about the loss of the sacred and a deterioration in relationships between men and woman that will end with people using each other to satisfy their needs. Everything that has come true in the culture at large is predicted.

My point, we start manipulating then we start choosing the sex and preferring one sex over another, then we destroy left over embyos…gee things that have happened. Unchecked, we end up with a real life “Gattica” which is a movie which profiled a future where your genetic make up determined how valued you were in society, what education and opportunities you had and what you could aspire to in life. Don’t get me started on the issue of some genetic manipulation ending up causing something that could cause severe harm or an epidemic of some kind.

Given that most western countries and science is focused on not recognizing that God needs to have a hand in all of our human searching the Church is right to hold that this desire to change and manipulate every gene is wrong.

 

[Ohiomom]

CORRECTION- I meant the encyclical Casti Connubii.

QUOTE=Ohiomom;5154663]It also can help to read some of they encyclicals and look at them in the light of history. Our parish right to life group had a series where we read encylicals on human life. We read Lumen Gentium and I got goosbumps. It was flat out prophetic. It talks about the loss of the sacred and a deterioration in relationships between men and woman that will end with people using each other to satisfy their needs. Everything that has come true in the culture at large is predicted.

.

 

[Callixtus]

I appreciate your evident sincerity. It is hard for many these days to enrich their understanding of our Catholic faith due to how difficult it can be to find good and reliable information. The mainstream media in our country does not understand the Catholic Church very well at all, unfortunately. They describe the Church’s teaching as “rulings” by the pope, as if he were just a political leader signing executive orders. The pope, when he speaks, is articulating what the Church has been saying about an issue for centuries, based on the gospel. Since human beings are essentially the same over time though culture changes, the general principles still apply today, no matter how “modern” a question or issue might seem.

We are an institution founded by Christ and his own chosen apostles. Christ himself and the Holy Spirit live in and - up to this modern world - through the Church down to this very day. The outside world and the secular culture might hit on truth here and there, but the secular culture as such does not possess anything special. When in doubt, I think it’s very important for us to “think with the Church.”

Thanks for any help

 

[Cathryn]

As Catholics we are to accept that Jesus Christ left us His Church, His Body with Him as the head, and the Holy Father as his representative on Earth. He left His authority with His Church. He left a teaching Church as Jesus tells us in the Great Commission. We have to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, otherwise we are not in communion with the Church. Jesus Christ left us His shepherd that we can listen to and obey. He did this when He told Peter to “feed my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep”. The keys are the symbol of this authority Jesus left. We have to humble ourselves and accept the authority of the Church. This is Jesus Christ’s own Body and we are the members. We can not decide we know better than the Church about our own faith and morals. There can be things we don’t understand yet, but we have to accept the authority of the Church. We can’t pick and choose what we agree with.