Personal Question about NFP

[micahmike]

Sigh. I don’t have a “source”, other than all the people I know, IRL and on the internet (including myself) that use NFP use it for both. Think about it: if you start out using it to avoid, then the time comes that you want to have a baby, are you honestly going to just throw out your charts and “forget” or ignore your fertile times? Especially once observing and charting become a regular part of your life, once you really want a baby, why would you not use your known fertile days? It just seems like common sense to me (but hey, I could be wrong )

I suspect that most people, and especially most married Catholics, spend most of their time neither trying to concieve nor trying to avoid. Most of the time we (collectively) don’t have serious reason to avoid, and most of us don’t have to try to concieve, it just happens like it has for the last 2000 years of Christianity. You don’t typically see a person have serious (grave iirc was from the first edditions, perhaps even unofficial, of ToB made available in English, later changed to “serious” - seems to me that both are pretty darned, umm…serious. IIRC things like waiting to complete an education or paying off a bill are not considered serious enough by Jimmy Akin) reason to avoid, and then all of a sudden switch to ttc.

Why don’t you start a new thread with a poll?

Because I suspect the results would be rather depressing and strengthen my oppinion that NFP has become Catholic birth control.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Who can speak for “most couples” in your criteria? Yeah, I’ll go do a 10 year study and get back to you…

For us, massive college debt and the chaos of adjusting to living together was a “serious” reason to put pregnancy off for nearly a year after our marriage. (It took that long for me to learn to leave the toilet seat down and hang the TP the ‘right’ way. )

Others feel the need to establish a couple of years of professional experience before taking off to have kids. That wasn’t our approach, but I think P6 purposely avoided making a list of “serious” reasons in Humanae Vitae. (Btw, where did you get “grave?” I’ve never seen that word used in actual documents).

For our first, we didn’t need to use NFP for TTC. We just had to stop TTA and PRESTO! The second child took enough months that we started paying attention to try to purposely TTC. Third child was a “oh what the heck” baby. Our allegedly serious reason didn’t stand up to hormonal scrutiny!

I think I read somewhere that one of the top ways children become successful (or at least stay out of prison!) is when their parents have a good, stable income.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I suspect that most people, and especially most married Catholics, spend most of their time neither trying to concieve nor trying to avoid. Most of the time we (collectively) don’t have serious reason to avoid, and most of us don’t have to try to concieve, it just happens like it has for the last 2000 years of Christianity. You don’t typically see a person have serious (grave iirc was from the first edditions, perhaps even unofficial, of ToB made available in English, later changed to “serious” - seems to me that both are pretty darned, umm…serious. IIRC things like waiting to complete an education or paying off a bill are not considered serious enough by Jimmy Akin) reason to avoid, and then all of a sudden switch to ttc.

Because I suspect the results would be rather depressing and strengthen my oppinion that NFP has become Catholic birth control.

I have a Fether Corapi CD we listen to in the car on Humane Vitae. He gives a very good talk on how to discern “serious” reasons. Perhaps it’s available on his website? It’s really good.

 

[Rach620]

I suspect that most people, and especially most married Catholics, spend most of their time neither trying to concieve nor trying to avoid.

I see what you are getting here, but I’m just not sure this is possible to do while one is charting using NFP. Either you choose to have sex during the fertile period (try to conceive) or you don’t (try to avoid). This can change on a month-to-month basis.

If you throw charting out the window, which I don’t suggest anyone do, since it is such a great tool for a woman’s health, and have sex willy-nilly w/o birth control, then sure, you’re technically neither trying to conceive nor trying to avoid. I guess I’ve “drunk enough of the NFP kool-aid” to be able to say that any achieving-related behavior (including having sex when the couple is unsure as to whether the woman is fertile) reveals that the couple’s intention is to achieve pregnancy. With charting (caveat, with charting AND adequate instruction and follow-up) a couple is always pretty well aware of the possibility of conception taking place. With random sex, they aren’t aware of the possibility of conception taking place, but it is still possible and likely.

This highlights the “bonus” of NFP. Needing to decide on a month-to-month basis whether a couple is seeking to achieve or avoid pregnancy fosters an active spirit of discernment between them. It’s a constant, necessary thing, and they are always looking at whether they have serious reasons to avoid or whether God might be calling them to grow their families. A default “we’re avoiding for the time being” attitude might not be as open to life as it should be–unless that attitude was in the beginning shaped by serious reasons and the couple knows what new circumstances would allow them to try to conceive.

 

[PaulinVA]

I suspect that most people, and especially most married Catholics, spend most of their time neither trying to concieve nor trying to avoid.

Uhm, yeah, that’s because 95% of Catholics are using artificial birth control or are sterilized.

Most of the time we (collectively) don’t have serious reason to avoid, and most of us don’t have to try to concieve, it just happens like it has for the last 2000 years of Christianity. You don’t typically see a person have serious (grave iirc was from the first editions, perhaps even unofficial, of ToB made available in English, later changed to “serious” - seems to me that both are pretty darned, umm…serious.

Your ability to make up statistics and make generalizations is indeed prodigious, but I am not buying it.

IIRC things like waiting to complete an education or paying off a bill are not considered serious enough by Jimmy Akin) reason to avoid, and then all of a sudden switch to ttc.

Well, then, Jimmy Akin knows what he needs to do in his life.

Because I suspect the results would be rather depressing and strengthen my opinion that NFP has become Catholic birth control.

Actually, condoms and the pill have become Catholic birth control. A very small percentage of Catholics use NFP. They are trying to be faithful. Go harangue the 95% not using NFP.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Actually, I do know 2 couples who did both, then neither:

1st couple, wife and her dh actually got pregnant while they were engaged using ABC (weren’t serious Catholics at the time). After they married, they had a conversion experience and started using NFP, initially to avoid. A couple years later, they wanted another child, and started using it to try to conceive. However, they then experienced secondary infertility. After testing and charting and testing and charting ad nauseum, their doctors could find no really reason for the infertility (i.e., determined that she wasn’t ovulating, but couldn’t figure out why, and clomid didn’t work), and pretty much chalked up their 1st baby to a “miracle.” They finally threw out the charts simply because it was too depressing to go through it every month. They then adopted 2 girls (sisters). A couple years later, out of nowhere, she discovers she’s pregnant again! I’ve since lost touch w/ them, so I don’t know if they’ve had anymore children, or if the infertility returned, or if they’re using NFP again.

2nd couple: got married, used NFP to avoid (no, I don’t know why, I didn’t know them then). Then tried for a year to conceive (w/ NFP), after no pregnancy was diagnosed w/ infertility. Adopted 2 children from India. When the youngest was 10, wife discovers she’s pregnant! (even though they belong to the same parish, I had lost touch w/ them as well, when I saw an announcement in the bulletin for their newest daughter’s baptism. I was kind of surprised that they waited so long to adopt again. A couple weeks later, I saw them at Mass w/ the baby. Clearly not Indian. I congratulated them, then looked at the baby and said “She’s not from India?” Mom laughed and said “No, she’s from ME!”

So, I know it’s only 2 examples (well, 3 counting me: baby at 17 using ABC, conception 2 weeks after wedding doing the “lets just see what happens” method, then using NFP to avoid and conceive at various times), but clearly shows that people do employ the knowledge of NFP for both purposes (as well as doing nothing) throughout their marriages.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[micahmike]

Uhm, yeah, that’s because 95% of Catholics are using artificial birth control or are sterilized.

Source? I don’t even think 95% of the general population is using ABC or sterilized.

I should have said (and meant) “I suspect that most people, and especially most married Catholics who are sometimes users of NFP, spend most of their time neither trying to concieve nor trying to avoid.”

Your ability to make up statistics and make generalizations is indeed prodigious, but I am not buying it.

I have generalized. I have not to my recolection made up any statistics. Can you show me where I did?

Well, then, Jimmy Akin knows what he needs to do in his life.

I don’t know what that means, but I suspect that “what Jimmy akin needs to do in his life” is to use his excelent and well-reasearched understanding of the Church to help other Catholics to better understand Church teaching. If you disagree with him that’s fine. I’d like to compare your credentials if you’d be so forthcoming as to share them.

Actually, condoms and the pill have become Catholic birth control. A very small percentage of Catholics use NFP. They are trying to be faithful. Go harangue the 95% not using NFP.

There are rules that govern the reasons for which NFP might be used to space children. Wouldn’t it be irresponsable not to remind our brothers and sisters that there are limited circumstances under which NFP use to avoid pregnancy is legit?

 

[LWOTF]

Great thread! NFP has been a blessing to my marriage. We contracepted for many years, and that contributed to serious marital problems. NFP has been one important factor in making our marriage truly sacramental.

To the OP: Yes, it is hard to abstain, but it is a practical skill. Before we switched to nfp, my wife was pregnant with our second child. She went on bed rest. No sex for 6 months of pregnancy and 3 months after, regardless of birth control method. So sometimes abstinence happens.

Right now we are waiting for the cycles to regulate from her last pregnancy. With nursing, the CM has been way too confusing. Next month promises to be ok, though. (We do have a serious reason to not go for number 5.) When she is regular, I expect sex will occur anwhere from 2 to 7 times per month (assuming no illnesses). To people who complain about how infrequent that is, I say that we were doing it a lot less (zero) before we were married! And our love survived that!

Seriously, our sex life is much improved quality wise now that we are using nfp. I will leave it at that.

To some of the other posters: pray for the catholics using birth control - they are only hurting themselves. And don’t just the motivations of those using nfp to avoid. We cannot see into others hearts. And if you disagree with the Church on the use of nfp, just remember the whole obedience thing!

Peace!

 

[PaulinVA]

Source? I don’t even think 95% of the general population is using ABC or sterilized.

I’ve read more than once that 3-5% of Catholics use NFP. I was reversing that. Maybe I should have removed people trying to achieve pregnancy. Still, only 3-5% use NFP.

I have generalized. I have not to my recolection made up any statistics. Can you show me where I did?

Is saying that most people do this or that a generalization or statistic? I don’t know.

I don’t know what that means, but I suspect that “what Jimmy akin needs to do in his life” is to use his excelent and well-reasearched understanding of the Church to help other Catholics to better understand Church teaching. If you disagree with him that’s fine. I’d like to compare your credentials if you’d be so forthcoming as to share them.

My point is that we are supposed to make our decisions with a well-formed conscience. Because Jimmy Akin thinks that paying off debt is not a serious reason, he should not use paying off debt as a serious reason. For someone else, paying off debt could be serious. That’s not relativist, that’s applying Church teaching.

There are rules that govern the reasons for which NFP might be used to space children. Wouldn’t it be irresponsible not to remind our brothers and sisters that there are limited circumstances under which NFP use to avoid pregnancy is legit?

Until the Church publishes it’s list of serious reasons, it is conjecture on anyone’s part to create their own list. You can remind people they need a serious reason, but (generalization) I think most people already know they need a serious reason.

 

[lovemyboys]

I totally agree with you. I think it’s so funny when Catholics get so testy at hearing that word in conjunction with NFP because that’s basically what NFP is. You are purposely abstaining on certain days to avoid conception. How is that not contraception? Maybe there is a deeper reason why Catholics get so defensive. Maybe they know somewhere deep down inside that there is something wrong with it.

Catholics can trust God with everything else but they don’t believe that God will send them the amount of children that they can handle. Seems hypocritical to me…

If some people have child after child after child with no big problems, I say “more power to them.” However, life can get pretty complicated for some people. God gave us the knowledge of NFP so that we can make intelligent, responsible (and sometimes life-saving) choices for our families. We know that NFP is from God because the Church approves it.

 

[prolifewife]

To the OP:

My husband and I have complete and total sexual “freedom.” We can have sexual relations any moment of any day of the week, month or year. 24/7/365. We certainly aren’t sterilized, nor do we use birth control or contraception. We don’t even have to use NFP. We won the “jackpot” of genetics. Yep, we are completely, totally, hopelessly infertile.

It sucks.

It sucks more than anything I have ever had to endure or go through, and I’ve been through a lot.

My husband and I would gladly give up weeks of sex for the PRIVILEGE of having fertility. Fertility is a blessing, a gift, a privilege. It is not something to be taken lightly, it has tremendous powers. Fertility, when used with God’s divine purpose and plan (in marriage of course ), has the power to create a temple for God. A temple for God to fill with an immortal soul to love and praise Him on earth and forever one day in heaven!!! :heaven:

You are so totally, unimaginably blessed if you are fertile! If you are very fertile, even more so! Seriously! You have the most precious gift a human being could ever receive, save Jesus Himself. It’s a gift worth sacrificing for. And believe me, one or two weeks of refraining from sex is nothing compared to the PRIVILEGE of being able to cooperate with God to bring another human being into existence!

 

[ryecroft]

Really, the only problem I have with what you said was that the only way you know if NFP has "failed"you is if you or your wife becomes pregnant. That’s way too scarry of a way to find something failed! I admit, I’m trying NFP again but it “failed” for us more than once and were told that either “God must have wantee you to get pregnant” or the “it looks like you had a secondary ovulation…” to which we said “what - why didn’t this get taught in the course?” - reply “because it’s so uncommon…”
I hope the CCL works better than the billings did.
Good luck to all of you that are using it, though!
God Bless
Rye

I’m not trying to be insensitive here, but the generalization that “NFP doesn’t work for me because I have medical issues” doesn’t really fly these days. I know a lot of people face many challenges with using NFP because I’m one of them. But instead of my medical difficulties standing in the way and NFP charts being useless, they are a powerful tool (in the hands of the right doctor) for diagnosing an treating those underlying medical issues.

The Creighton Model is especially effective for these purposes, which is why a lot of people advocate trying out the different methods and taking full advantage of them. Sometimes the underlying medical issues can’t be treated “easily”–I’ve had surgery to address some of mine–but many of them can be treated with outpatient procedures, lifestyle/dietary changes, hormone testing/management, vitamin regimens, etc., to help make a woman’s charting easier by addressing her problems, whatever those might be. I’m not saying that there is a perfect answer for everyone, but I definitely do not agree that with NFP “there is a high probability of things just going wrong”. This is not borne out by research into the modern methods of NFP.

Most mainstream OB-GYNs say “there must be a problem” and suggest sterilization or the Pill as the cure-all treatment, when in reality there are many things that can be done to identify and treat the medical issues that lead to difficulty with using NFP to achieve or avoid pregnancy.

 

[Rach620]

Really, the only problem I have with what you said was that the only way you know if NFP has "failed"you is if you or your wife becomes pregnant. That’s way too scarry of a way to find something failed! I admit, I’m trying NFP again but it “failed” for us more than once and were told that either “God must have wantee you to get pregnant” or the “it looks like you had a secondary ovulation…” to which we said “what - why didn’t this get taught in the course?” - reply “because it’s so uncommon…”
I hope the CCL works better than the billings did.
Good luck to all of you that are using it, though!
God Bless
Rye

Hi, Rye. I just saw your other thread on trying NFP again–good for you! Let me try to clarify a couple of things I’ve said.

First of all, in my experience it is very important to seek out one of the instructor-based methods of NFP. I’m not sure how Billings or CCLI work, but the Creighton Model has a very intensive instruction and follow-up program with a Creighton practitioner, including frequent chart reviews and in-depth and ongoing instruction on how to use the method. This is of ultimate importance when trying to make sense of cycle difficulties such as secondary ovulation. And while secondary ovulation IS rare, it can also be detected by good charting techniques and consistent review of the charts with a qualified instructor. (For a little background–the Creighton Model is basically a more methodical version of Billings. It only uses the mucus sign, but it is more objective about the process of making observations and the types of observations of the mucus that are made, and it has a lot of medical research to back it up.)

Secondly, I don’t fully agree that the only way to know if NFP “fails” is with pregnancy. For some people, it works the opposite–NFP is said to “fail” when they don’t conceive. But in both cases, what is really “failing” is the woman’s body. It’s not working properly–either she does not have fully functioning fertility or the signs of her healthily functioning fertility are somehow impaired by other factors, sometimes factors as simple as her dairy intake or the type of laundry detergent or bath soap she uses. Sometimes confusing charts are an indication of other underlying issues which charting can help diagnose and a good doctor can help treat. If a woman is charting and her charts are veiled in mystery and she is having difficulty determining when she is fertile, then she needs more instruction and potentially needs to try a different method.

I want to encourage you in your journey into NFP again. I can understand how frightening it might be to “let go” of control, in some ways, in this area of your lives. NFP can be used effectively, sometimes it just takes a lot of learning, a lot of discipline when it comes to abstinence, and trying out a few different methods to see which one sheds the most light on your cycles. For me, I have had a great experience with the Creighton Model and I would be wary of any version of NFP where instruction was minimal (ie, a few meetings with a teacher and then I’m on my own) or the bulk of the instruction occurs through reading a book. I just don’t think that this version of instruction sets couples up for long-term success (either at avoiding or achieving pregnancy) or satisfaction with NFP, but I realize that’s a personal opinion and this is a personal decision for any one.

I wish you all the best!