Persons

[billcu1]

I wrote something like this a while back but I am still confused. The idea of “Persons” is that Aquinas or Aristotle? There are 3 persons and one nature. I understand that. With us humans are we one person and one nature? Now what exactly is “personage”? Do animals have personage? John’s personage is “John”. Jesus’ personage is “Son”. idk

Bill

 

[JimG]

“Person” is that aspect of our being which allows us to respond to the question “who?” We are not only an object but a subject.

Person is an aspect of any spiritual being. We are composite beings, composed of body and soul–matter and spirit. It is the spiritual aspect of humans that makes us into persons.

A rock can be a what but not a who. So can a plant. Or an animal. An animal can actually have a personality, but not be a “person,” because its soul is not a spirit.

There is a lot of biology and genetics in personality, but not in person, which is that spiritual aspect of us which is a subject, a who.

 

[billcu1]

“Person” is that aspect of our being which allows us to respond to the question “who?” We are not only an object but a subject.

Person is an aspect of any spiritual being. We are composite beings, composed of body and soul–matter and spirit. It is the spiritual aspect of humans that makes us into persons.

A rock can be a what but not a who. So can a plant. Or an animal. An animal can actually have a personality, but not be a “person,” because its soul is not a spirit.

There is a lot of biology and genetics in personality, but not in person, which is that spiritual aspect of us which is a subject, a who.

Humm. “soul is not a spirit”. Are they not two different things? I thought a spirit worked on and through a body to create a soul. By actions and living.

 

[billcu1]

“Person” is that aspect of our being which allows us to respond to the question “who?” We are not only an object but a subject.

Person is an aspect of any spiritual being. We are composite beings, composed of body and soul–matter and spirit. It is the spiritual aspect of humans that makes us into persons.

A rock can be a what but not a who. So can a plant. Or an animal. An animal can actually have a personality, but not be a “person,” because its soul is not a spirit.

There is a lot of biology and genetics in personality, but not in person, which is that spiritual aspect of us which is a subject, a who.

Something else that confuses me. Mortal sin kills love. Or Charity. The person of the Holy Spirit is love. So when we sin does this kill the holy spirit?

 

[pianistclare]

Something else that confuses me. Mortal sin kills love. Or Charity. The person of the Holy Spirit is love. So when we sin does this kill the holy spirit?

Where do you get that mortal sin kills love?
Mortal severely damages our relationship with God.
The Holy Spirit, being a Person of God, cannot be killed.
.

 

[GEddie]

A person is a being whose “nature” involves interaction with other persons.

“Personage” is a somewhat ambiguous word, but could be used to describe the aspects of personhood that are known to others.

ICXC NIKA

 

[billcu1]

Where do you get that mortal sin kills love?
Mortal severely damages our relationship with God.
The Holy Spirit, being a Person of God, cannot be killed.
.

I can’t remember unfortunately where I read that Charity is killed by mortal sin. We lose it. Venial sin damages charity somewhat.

 

[JimG]

Humm. “soul is not a spirit”. Are they not two different things? I thought a spirit worked on and through a body to create a soul. By actions and living.

Spirit is a type of real being which is not material Angels are spirits. God is a spirit. Humans are composites of matter and spirit. The spiritual part of humans is the soul. A “soul” is the animating principle of a living thing, and in the case of human beings, the soul is a spirit.

 

[JimG]

Something else that confuses me. Mortal sin kills love. Or Charity. The person of the Holy Spirit is love. So when we sin does this kill the holy spirit?

You may be speaking of love here meaning the divine virtue of charity, aka love, as in the three divine virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. In that sense, mortal sin may drive out love. It can drive out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But it cannot keep God entirely detached from us. If it did, we would cease to exist.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I wrote something like this a while back but I am still confused. The idea of “Persons” is that Aquinas or Aristotle? There are 3 persons and one nature. I understand that. With us humans are we one person and one nature? Now what exactly is “personage”? Do animals have personage? John’s personage is “John”. Jesus’ personage is “Son”. idk

Bill

“Person” as used today, in the age after the advent of empirical psychology, is radically different from its use in the era of the first seven ecumenical councils when the Church was resolving the questions on the formulation of the Church’s teaching about both the Trinity and Christology. The term properly must be understood in light of their usage then…not our usage now.

You would need to look, for example, to the initial usage of Tertullian for the Latin persona (which gets transliterated out of Latin into the other languages) and the corresponding terms of the Greeks: ὑπόστασις (hypostasis) and πρόσωπον (prosopon). You should look to the fundamental definition of person of Boethius and then its development in philosophical psychology, notably, yes, with Aquinas.

Personally, I would recommend starting here newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm and you can proceed from there. But be careful. It is just such a journey that can lead to becoming a life-long student of philosophy and of theology as you contemplate the Godhead…or the hypostatic union and the implications of the communicatio idiomatum. It can result in a significant library, ultimately

 

[billcu1]

You may be speaking of love here meaning the divine virtue of charity, aka love, as in the three divine virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. In that sense, mortal sin may drive out love. It can drive out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But it cannot keep God entirely detached from us. If it did, we would cease to exist.

So if it drives out the Holy Spirit. Would we need to be reconfirmed. The seal of confirmation is what stamps in the Holy Spirit to my knowledge. I was confirmed at the Easter vigil with other RCIA students. Not by the Bishop. Is the Bishop needed for this?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

So if it drives out the Holy Spirit. Would we need to be reconfirmed. The seal of confirmation is what stamps in the Holy Spirit to my knowledge. I was confirmed at the Easter vigil with other RCIA students. Not by the Bishop. Is the Bishop needed for this?

No…the bishop is the original minister of confirmation but a priest can confirm – either by delegation or by a grant of the law itself. In the case of those confirmed at the end of RCIA, it is the law itself that grants the priest the faculty to confirm.

Confirmation is a sacrament that cannot be repeated. Like Baptism and Holy Order, it imprints an indelible character on the soul.

 

[Vico]

I wrote something like this a while back but I am still confused. The idea of “Persons” is that Aquinas or Aristotle? There are 3 persons and one nature. I understand that. With us humans are we one person and one nature? Now what exactly is “personage”? Do animals have personage? John’s personage is “John”. Jesus’ personage is “Son”. idk

Bill

St. Thomas Aquinas favored the definition of Boethius which may be applied to humans, and by analogy to angels, and divinity: “The person is an individual substance of a rational nature”.

Unlike non-rational animals, human beings choose their actions through a reasoned account of what is thought to be good.

 

[JimG]

So if it drives out the Holy Spirit. Would we need to be reconfirmed. The seal of confirmation is what stamps in the Holy Spirit to my knowledge. I was confirmed at the Easter vigil with other RCIA students. Not by the Bishop. Is the Bishop needed for this?

No, confirmation can be conferred only once, just like baptism. If one commits mortal sin after baptism, he does not get re-baptized. He goes to confession, which reconciles one to God and restores sanctifying grace, which is itself the indwelling life of the holy spirit. It might be clearer to say that mortal sin causes the loss of sanctifying grace which is the life of God dwelling in us.

 

[Vico]

I can’t remember unfortunately where I read that Charity is killed by mortal sin. We lose it. Venial sin damages charity somewhat.

Mortal sin is when one willfully chooses a grave violation of God’s law to God. It is an inferior good, and it is uncharitable, and once done, we stay turned away from God until our repentance!

Catechism
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

 

[fhansen]

Where do you get that mortal sin kills love?
Mortal severely damages our relationship with God.
The Holy Spirit, being a Person of God, cannot be killed.
.

Mortal sin destroying love in us is a basic teaching of the Church. This goes hand in hand with losing relationship with God the Holy Spirit, Who is love.
**1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds **

 

[billcu1]

Mortal sin destroying love in us is a basic teaching of the Church. This goes hand in hand with losing relationship with God the Holy Spirit, Who is love.
**1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds **

Losing relationship with God. What’s that mean? If being tempted and you ask for help a “ministering angel” won’t be sent? What type of relationship is lost?

 

[fhansen]

Losing relationship with God. What’s that mean? If being tempted and you ask for help a “ministering angel” won’t be sent? What type of relationship is lost?

Man was made for communion with God. Our faith is meant to establish that relationship. When we sin gravely we act against love, we break our communion.