Peter being declared pope argument

[steve-b]

you guys are making no sense… doesn’t liturgy mean a formal for worship or something like that… l

by the time some activity is actually written down, back then, that doesn’t mean that’s the first time it happened

Heb 10 describes that when they meet on Sunday, they celebrate the Eucharist.

The mass in scripture

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine) Heb 10:19-31 RSVCE - A Call to Persevere - Therefore, - Bible Gateway
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
"the Day" = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected

What are they doing when they meet?

“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the
Eucharist
Matthew 26:28 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt+26%3A28&version=RSVCE
Mark 14:24 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14:24&version=RSVCE

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass, the Eucharist

THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains, a sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant for Them
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

As an aside, Re: sin

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

 

[annad347]

I was replying to @annad347 post #72

I said IF

How am I suppose to know what was done before what was written, but if anything was written wouldn’t it have been from what we call The Old Testament, The Torah, Moses Laws? again keep in mind I said IF.

The Epistles gives me some indication that because people were going back to their old way and were being warned of false information, liars and basically evil from entering the church things were not being done as the Apostles instructed.

History shows not all leaders (Pope, Bishop, Priest) of the Catholics church were good people, which tells me something went wrong from the time Jesus says to Peter, On you I will build My church and The Catholic church we have now. Which why, I understand why some people question if the church Jesus promised to Peter is today known as The Catholic church… that was all I was saying.

and when I said The New Testament came before the liturgy… my mistake. I meant that The Word (Jesus) came first, the Apostles second, then the rest… to me The New Testament is The Word of God, not just books put together by some very smart people… its more then that, that’s why I said it came first… again my bad.

Peace to you too adf417

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

I don’t think I was questioning the sin of missing mass on Sunday being venial or mortal sin… or a sin at all… so not sure what you are proving to me you’re correct about.

 

[Gorgias]

History shows not all leaders (Pope, Bishop, Priest) of the Catholics church were good people, which tells me something went wrong from the time Jesus says to Peter, On you I will build My church and The Catholic church we have now.

OK, so… since people are human, and therefore make mistakes and commit sins… therefore the Church is wrong? No… that doesn’t follow. If it were logical, then it would mean that Jesus didn’t understand that people were sinners and were imperfect.

Instead, we should expect that people will make mistakes, and that, when Jesus promises that the Church will not fail, we have to understand what He’s promising. Simply put, He’s saying that the Church will be protected from teaching error in its doctrines. The rest? It’s up to us. Can we make errors in prudential judgment? Yep. That doesn’t mean that the Church itself “has gone wrong”, though.

 

[annad347]

No… not The Church. The Catholic Church… I meant specifically The Catholic Church.

The Catholics believe they are the only church that can bring people to salvation… based on their understanding of Peter being the first Pope or Bishop… and I was wondering if that’s what Jesus said… then everything went from there.

I was never questioning the church… though the church only being in the Catholic church is an understandable question some people might have.

as for which came first… liturgy, the new testament, tradition or the word, I think I explained my mistake or rather misunderstanding… but please don’t ever for a second think you need to convince me about the importance of the church, physically or spiritually.

 

[adf417]

I said IF

Fair enough-

The Epistles gives me some indication that because people were going back to their old way and were being warned of false information, liars and basically evil from entering the church things were not being done as the Apostles instructed.

Agreed but this does not mean the church was teaching wrongly or the liturgy was corrupted. People will always be practicing the faith with less than perfect zeal and some more so than others.

History shows not all leaders (Pope, Bishop, Priest) of the Catholics church were good people, which tells me something went wrong from the time Jesus says to Peter, On you I will build My church and The Catholic church we have now. Which why, I understand why some people question if the church Jesus promised to Peter is today known as The Catholic church… that was all I was saying.

I noticed your window did not include the point when Peter denied Jesus 3 times, why? Do you think Peter was perfect and something extra special in terms of practicing the faith? Did you also forget it was Peter that thought the Gentiles needed to be Circumcised? Do you not think this was important to the whole Christian faith?

and when I said The New Testament came before the liturgy… my mistake. I meant that The Word (Jesus) came first, the Apostles second, then the rest… to me The New Testament is The Word of God, not just books put together by some very smart people… its more then that, that’s why I said it came first… again my bad.

:+1:t3:
Understood!

Peace to you too adf417

Thanks, i really need that.

 

[annad347]

Agreed but this does not mean the church was teaching wrongly or the liturgy was corrupted.

I would hope not, but no offense not a lot of people had the ability to read the truth on their own back in the day, they depended on the leaders to teach them correctly… and its only by the Grace of God, some very smart people, who were filled with The Holy Spirit, gave us the ability to read the truth for ourselves in the bible.

…People will always be practicing the faith with less than perfect zeal and some more so than others.

Sad but true.

I noticed your window did not include the point when Peter denied Jesus 3 times, why?

really, it happened over 2000 years ago, let it go… just kidding, I actually didn’t think about it, but I never thought Peter was perfect, but do I think he had something extra special in terms of practicing the faith? Yes, Yes I do… especially after he and the other apostles received the full strength of The Holy Spirit after Jesus return to heaven.

But I don’t think its a question of the importance of Peter but of the Catholic church being the church built on Peter… him being declared Pope… right?

 

[adf417]

Im sorry Anna, i cannot follow your postings.

Peace!!!

 

[Gorgias]

The Catholics believe they are the only church that can bring people to salvation…

“The Catholics”… “they”? That says something interesting about self-perception!

But, let’s talk about that assertion: Catholics don’t believe that we bring people to salvation – only God is able to do that!

based on their understanding of Peter being the first Pope or Bishop…

No… that’s not quite correct. The reason isn’t Peter, per se. The reason is the relationship between Jesus, Peter, and the Church Jesus founded…

and I was wondering if that’s what Jesus said…

Jesus said that He would build His Church on Peter. Which Christian group is built on Peter? That’s where you find the Church that Jesus built. That’s where you find the means of grace and salvation that Jesus intends for us.

(And, BTW… when the Catholic Church asserts that it is the Church that Christ founded, it doesn’t mean that all other people are doomed to condemnation. It means that whatever salvation exists, exists through the graces of the Church that Jesus founded.)

 

[steve-b]

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

annad347:

I don’t think I was questioning the sin of missing mass on Sunday being venial or mortal sin… or a sin at all… so not sure what you are proving to me you’re correct about.

I was responding to your question

"doesn’t liturgy mean a formal for worship or something like that"?

So I showed in Hebrews where a liturgy (celebrating the Eucharist) is shown to formally take place on “the Day”, i.e. on Sunday, AND the consequence for one who fails to meet and celebrate that , as is the habit of some…

 

[annad347]

(And, BTW… when the Catholic Church asserts that it is the Church that Christ founded, it doesn’t mean that all other people are doomed to condemnation. It means that whatever salvation exists, exists through the graces of the Church that Jesus founded.)

True… but some Catholic feel that can be found only in the Catholic church. Other churches are missing something.

 

[Gorgias]

True… but some Catholic feel that can be found only in the Catholic church.

Well… to be fair, salvation only comes through the graces that Christ offers, and He offers them through His Church, not every denomination. But, those graces are available, and those who are saved are actually saved by those graces !

Other churches are missing something.

Well… they are! They’re missing the sacraments that only the Church offers!

 

[annad347]

Well… they are! They’re missing the sacraments that only the Church offers!

Which brings us back to the beginning…