Peter the Fuller and the Trisagion - Non-Chalcedonians, please respond

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I think that it is kind of ridiculous to split those hairs.
I guess that’s your opinion. Mine differs, but never mind.
Trisagion means THrice holy. It is a reference to the Thrice holy hymn that the seraphim chanted to God.
Yes, thank you, I know what “Trisagion” means. And no, the word is not, liturgically speaking, used in reference to the Hymn of the Seraphim (aka "Sanctus’).

In any case, I’m not sparring for an argument so, beyond the above, I’ve nothing to say other than what I said in my earlier post.
 
Malphono, I am not trying to degrade you,

From what I have read of your past posts, I respect your opinion, especially as regards the Maronites; I am just wondering why the thrice holy hymn in the preface is not considered…THE thrice holy hymn, the Trisagion. Can you please reference that for me? Where did you learn that?

Thank you brother!
 
Malphono, I am not trying to degrade you,

From what I have read of your past posts, I respect your opinion, especially as regards the Maronites; I am just wondering why the thrice holy hymn in the preface is not considered…THE thrice holy hymn, the Trisagion. Can you please reference that for me? Where did you learn that?

Thank you brother!
Thanks … that was welcome and appreciated. 🙂

The Hymn of the Seraphim (aka the “Sanctus”) is indeed “thrice Holy” but it is, as I mentioned earlier, clearly directed to the Father. Just as the** Institution Narrative** is directed to the Son. Just as the Epiklesis is direted to the Holy Ghost, the three forming a cohesive unit within the Anaphora. But it, (the “Sanctus”), differs markedly from what is liturgically considered the Trisagion, which (among Chalcedonians) is directed to the Trinity, or (among non-Chalcedonian) to Christ alone.
 
That would only make sens though IF the thrice holy hymn were directed to the Father alone. BUt scripture indicates that it is directed to Christ!
I actually found some Biblical evidence for the interpretation of the Trisagion as Christological!

Isaiah 6:1-4

"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;

the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke."

Now, Read John 12:40-41"

40“He has blinded their eyes

and deadened their hearts,

so they can neither see with their eyes,

nor understand with their hearts,

nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him."

Remeber, Isaiah described only one person (THough of course Christ cannot be seperated from the Trinity, but it is fitting that he who would be incarnate would be the one to reveal himself in this manner).

So:
Isaiah Saw Jesus and Spoke about him.
THis Description of Jesus given by Isaiah has angels singing Holy,Holy,Holy to him,
Therefore the Trisagion is in THIS CASE a reference to the person of the Logos first, and secondarily a type of the trinity with the common substance being “Lord” in accord with the Fathers.

So, either way you swing is biblical.

Why would you say it is clearly directed to the Father?
 
That would only make sens though IF the thrice holy hymn were directed to the Father alone. BUt scripture indicates that it is directed to Christ!
I actually found some Biblical evidence for the interpretation of the Trisagion as Christological! …

So, either way you swing is biblical.
Yes, of course it’s biblical, but the Sanctus (it’s just easier to use that term) IS directed to the Father. One need only read the text of the Preface (including the “low voice” prayer that precedes it and the one that follows the “Sanctus”) in any of the Syriac Anaphorae to see that.
 
But in the reference book for the Coptic liturgy I have, they say the sanctus is addressed to the Trinity. Did you see that post Malphono? about 4 or 5 back?
 
But in the reference book for the Coptic liturgy I have, they say the sanctus is addressed to the Trinity. Did you see that post Malphono? about 4 or 5 back?
Yes, I saw it. 🙂

One must always keep in mind that the Trinity is One, so in that sense, yes, it’s addressed to the Trinity. But the “Sanctus” (actually the Preface as a whole, including both the “full voice” and “low voice” prayers before and after) is, in particular, addressed to the Father. Just as the Institution Narrative is, in particular, to the Son. Just as the Epiklesis is, in particular, to the Holy Ghost. All are Trinitarian by extension, but each is specific by itself.
 
This topic came up recently on a Coptic Orthodox forum I read and sometimes post on. You can read the thread in question here. As would be expected, the non-Chalcedonians have a very different perspective on the claims of the Chalcedonians regarding the Trisagion. I am staying out of it but to learn, as I will be here on CAF, too, but I figure that link might help as it doesn’t seem like we have very many miaphysites here on CAF.
 
I belong to the ROman church, but my Christology is thoroughly Cyriline, ergo That of Severus of Antioch 😉 and Philoxenus and DIoscorus. AKA Orthodox.
 
I belong to the ROman church, but my Christology is thoroughly Cyriline, ergo That of Severus of Antioch 😉 and Philoxenus and DIoscorus. AKA Orthodox.
Personally, I’d be a bit wary of putting the words “Sevarus of Antioch” and “orthodox” together in the same sentence. The jury is still out (for how many hundreds of years now?) on whether or not Sevarus was orthodox. 🤷
 
I also lean more towards miaphysitism, though I am liturgically a Byzantine.
 
Personally, I’d be a bit wary of putting the words “Sevarus of Antioch” and “orthodox” together in the same sentence. The jury is still out (for how many hundreds of years now?) on whether or not Sevarus was orthodox. 🤷
I think it is pretty well accepted that Severus was orthodox, and only repeated the theology of Cyril. From what I have read of Severus, he is orthodox. He might be confrontational and derisive, but he isn’t unorthodox.
 
THe Catholic church and the oriental church now recognize each others Christologies as Orthodox. THerefore their Christological fathers and proponents are Orthodox, right?

In the period 518-520 AD Severus engaged in a correspondence with a certain Sergius. This Sergius had been attempting to expound the Orthodox teaching about the Incarnation of Christ, but had been criticised by his local synod because he had spoken without discretion…

…Sergius’ problem was that in opposing the Nestorian position that in Christ the Divinity and humanity were naturally separate and united only in a personal manner, he strayed too far from the truth and failed to expound the Orthodox teaching. This Sergius taught that the opposite of a natural disunity was a simple unity in which there could only be one nature, which Sergius took in the sense of ousia or essence, and therefore created a new Christ nature which was neither essentially human or Divine. In most modern Christian’s eyes this is the teaching of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. We are assumed to confess in one nature a simple and confused unity which destroys the distinction between humanity and Divinity. Severus’ opposition of Sergius will clearly illustrate the fundamental difference between the ‘one nature’ of Sergius and the ‘one incarnate nature’ of Cyril and Severus.

Here is an excerpt from one of the letters

“For even if the Only-Begotten Son of God, incarnate and inhominate, is said by us to be one, he is not confused because of this, as he seems to those people, nor has the nature of the Word passed over into the nature of the flesh, nor indeed has the nature of the flesh passed into that which is his, but while each one of them continues together in the particularity that belongs to the nature, and is thought of in accordance with the account which has just been given by us, the inexpressible and ineffable union shows us one nature of the son, but as I have said, incarnate.”

“…particularity implies the otherness of natures of those things which have come together in union, and the difference lies in natural quality. For the one is uncreated, but the other created…Nevertheless, while this difference and the particularity of the natures, from which comes the one Christ, still remains without confusion, it is said that the Word of Life was both seen and touched.”

“There is no share in any blame that one should recognise, for example, that the flesh is one thing in its own nature, apart from the Word which sprang from God and the Father, and that the Only-Begotten is another again, with respect to his own nature. Nevertheless to recognise these things is not to divide the natures after the union.”

THis is EXACTLY the point that II constantinople made when in their Capitula they proclaim:

VII.

"If anyone using the expression, “in two natures,” does not confess that our one Lord Jesus Christ has been revealed in the divinity and in the humanity, so as to designate by that expression a difference of the natures of which an ineffable union is unconfusedly made, [a union] in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into that of the flesh, nor that of the flesh into that of the Word, for each remained that it was by nature, the union being hypostatic; but shall take the expression with regard to the mystery of Christ in a sense so as to divide the parties, or recognising the two natures in the only Lord Jesus, God the Word made man, does not content himself with taking in a theoretical manner the difference of the natures which compose him, which difference is not destroyed by the union between them, for one is composed of the two and the two are in one, but shall make use of the number [two] to divide the natures or to make of them Persons properly so called: let him be anathema.

THis is totally in agreement with Everything Severus Just said about the continuing difference of the natures in the one incarnate nature (I.E. Hypostasis)

When we say Christ is two, we only mean theoretically, abstractly, contemplating him, for we cannot divide the ineffable union. THe nature of a union is unity, and unity is by nature single, and if single, then one. BUt not elementally one as fluids are one and comingled, but compositely one as two things brought into union like soul and body.

I know you know all this Malphono. Can you think of another reason the Jury might be out on Severus?
 
I know you know all this Malphono. Can you think of another reason the Jury might be out on Severus?
I think it is pretty well accepted that Severus was orthodox, and only repeated the theology of Cyril. From what I have read of Severus, he is orthodox. He might be confrontational and derisive, but he isn’t unorthodox.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying that I think Sevarus of Antioch was truly a monophysite, but simply that it’s not universally accepted that he was fully orthodox either. That’s where the jury is still out. 🤷
 
From what I have learned the Trisagion as used by the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is traditionally addressed to God the Father. In the Oriental Orthodox Church, especially after Peter the Fuller made the addition of “Crucified for us have mercy upon us”, uses the Trisagion to address Jesus Christ.
 
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