Petrine Papacy and Apostolic Succession

[Martin777]

:nope:

Oh, no… so you’re a Protestant or a dissident Catholic… :nope:

That’s not what I said.

 

[Stephen168]

How I wish that were the case.

that is a doctrine of man, and foreign to the scriptures.

…examine those who graciously tell you they have experienced the new birth. Find out why some long to lead others to Christ, while others seek to perpetuate an institution…whether it be Catholic,Episcopal, Methodist…whatever.

I rarely think about Luther. His primary contribution to the church was to publicly discover the same thing Wesley discovered–how to be born again through fiath alone in the finished work of the cross.

I agree souls in heaven are alive. But there is no need to pray to anyone except God, through the Holy Spirit he has given us.

It would be interesting to know how many of them were actually regenerate!

My good friend, why did you assume I am not catholic?

 

[cazayoux]

There is no difference. If you study the doctrine of grace you will see that works confirm that our faith is real, that it is the genuine article. But it is the grace of God, through faith, that produces genuine works. I serve God and have surrendered my life to Him, not in order to get to heaven, but rather out of gratitude for the fact that he has saved me forever out of His mercy and grace. Until he dealt with my sin through the cross, I could never serve him freely. Now I can.

Ahh … but this is incorrect.
Works are not merely proof of faith.

Paul doesn’t say that faith without works isn’t faith.
He says that faith without works is dead.

So, of the faithful, they have to choose to do the works God has set aside for them. They have to choose to DO what Christ said they must DO.

What happens to those faithful (already Christians), that do not DO what Christ says to DO?

I do agree with you that these things that we decide to do, are done only by the grace of God.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Jesus summed the issue up when he said, …

I see the issue now.
You do take one verse out and call it a summary, and in calling it a summary, ignore other scripture.

Our belief is of course essential and primary to all else.
However, you seem to treat belief as the end where I see it as a beginning.

There is MUCH that Christ says we must do… and we decided to do it … and they are only able to be done by the grace of God.
You cannot ignore them by pointing to a summary statement.

We must …
Have faith
forgive the sins of others
care for one’s family
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned
keep the Commandments
love my brother
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily
do the will of the Father
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man
give a return for the talents the Master has given us
be baptized
confess our sins…
all by the grace of God.

What happens to Christians (believers) that do not do these things Jesus tells us to do?

michel

 

[guanophore]

That’s not what I said.

True, but that is the default conclusion based upon what you said. One who does not accept the promises of Jesus to the Church is not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Martin777:

My good friend, why did you assume I am not catholic?

Well done Stephen! Masterful.

 

[Martin777]

True, but that is the default conclusion based upon what you said. One who does not accept the promises of Jesus to the Church is not Catholic.

I truly accept all the promises of Jesus to the Church! “In Him is the amen”
What’s your favorite promise?

 

[guanophore]

I truly accept all the promises of Jesus to the Church! “In Him is the amen”
What’s your favorite promise?

It would be hard to choose a favorite, but in the light of the thread topic, I would say they are the ones that confirm that the Church will not err in teaching faith and morals. The infallibility of the church is based upon Jesus’ promises through the HS. It is this divine element that prevents error, just as the Divine inspiration of Scripture prevented fallible men from making any errors when writing it.

Jesus sent His spirit to guide us into all Truth:

John 16:13-15
" When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

John 14:18-19
18 "I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you.

Jesus did not leave us orphaned,but sent the Spirit to guide us into all Truth.

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The gates of hell will not prevail. Teaching error causes people to pass through the gates of hell. To prevail over the gates, Jesus keeps the teaching of the Church pure.

 

[Martin777]

It would be hard to choose a favorite, but in the light of the thread topic, I would say they are the ones that confirm that the Church will not err in teaching faith and morals. The infallibility of the church is based upon Jesus’ promises through the HS. It is this divine element that prevents error, just as the Divine inspiration of Scripture prevented fallible men from making any errors when writing it.

Jesus sent His spirit to guide us into all Truth:

John 16:13-15
" When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

John 14:18-19
18 "I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you.

Jesus did not leave us orphaned,but sent the Spirit to guide us into all Truth.

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The gates of hell will not prevail. Teaching error causes people to pass through the gates of hell. To prevail over the gates, Jesus keeps the teaching of the Church pure.

I think one of my favorite promises is this: “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish.”

 

[guanophore]

I think one of my favorite promises is this: “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish.”

Then do you subscribe to the modern notion that a sheep who refuses to respond to His voice whas never a “true sheep” in the first place?

Do you believe that those persons who embraced the notion of Peter having primacy among the Apostles and that there is an Aposolic succession were never true sheep?

 

[Martin777]

Then do you subscribe to the modern notion that a sheep who refuses to respond to His voice whas never a “true sheep” in the first place?

Do you believe that those persons who embraced the notion of Peter having primacy among the Apostles and that there is an Aposolic succession were never true sheep?

Regarding the first question I have two thoughts: First John does say in one place that “They went out from among us because they were not of us.” Second, Jesus says if right now you are His sheep, He will see to it that you never perish and that no one plucks you out of His hand! What a marvelous promise.

On the second question, the only true test of a sheep is that they are trusting in Jesus the Shepherd alone for their salvation. If they truly do trust in Him, then their life should show fruit!

 

[guanophore]

Regarding the first question I have two thoughts: First John does say in one place that “They went out from among us because they were not of us.”

Yes, there certainly are some wolves in sheeps clothing.

Second, Jesus says if right now you are His sheep, He will see to it that you never perish and that no one plucks you out of His hand! What a marvelous promise.

Indeed, it is. But it does not mean that the sheep cannot jump out of His hand and run off. some of these repent and return, some do not.

On the second question, the only true test of a sheep is that they are trusting in Jesus the Shepherd alone for their salvation. If they truly do trust in Him, then their life should show fruit!

Yes. I fear that there are many “lost sheep”, who do believe they trust in Him, yet their lives do not reflect the conformity to His image that one would expect.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Boy has this thread deviated!

IIRC it was originally about apostolic succession, the Petrine privilege, and papal succession.

It was shaping into an interesting discussion (and I was learning quite a bit).

Is there any way we could get back on topic please?

 

[joe370]

**Hi folks.

In a number of the threads I’ve been posting in we have touched on Peter and his role in the foundation or governance of the Church. Whether you believe that Peter was the “rock” upon which the Church was found and the first Pope - Bishop of Rome, I think, is ultimately a matter of faith.**

We do know one thing, regardless who the rock is, Jesus built a church and said nothing would defeat it. He said the Holy Spirit would guide His created Church until the end of time --forever. With that said, shouldn’t Jesus’ church still exist today? If it does shouldn’t all Christians belong to His established church?

Faith aside, it might be worthwhile to explore the evidence. Some in this forum have claimed that there historical proof that the line of popes - apostolic succession extends right back to Peter. Personally, I don’t think so.

If the C.C. can’t trace its lineage through history, all the way back to the apostles --what church can? If no church can, as you seem to believe, how does one find the apostolic church built by Jesus, promised by Jesus to be unconquerable, promised by Jesus that the H.S. would be guiding His one apostolic church forever; promised by Jesus that His apostolic church would** be the light of the world.**** Did the H.S. fail**? If we can’t locate the apostolic church of the 1st century in the 21st century, then He did in fact fail?

Would anyone care to review the facts or post the evidence?

Yup, but first, could you share your thoughts with me vis-a-vis the preceding comments?

I’d also be interested in exploring the case for Peter’s primacy in the New Testament.

First, I think it would be imperative that we locate the apostolic church?

Note: This is my first thread. Please don’t misunderstand me. Regardless of any doctrinal or historical disagreements I may have with you, I respect and appreciate the Roman Catholic Church. The whole world owes it a debt of gratitude.

Why do you think the whole world owes it a debt of gratitude, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[MDK]

How I wish that were the case.

Your wish has come true (actually, it was already true in advance of your wish)!