Philosophically oriented question on the Eucharist:

[Andreas_Hofer]

A Protestant friend-of-a-friend recently brought up in debate that he had a problem with the Catholic belief in the Eucharist because he couldn’t see how Christ’s crucified body could have been present at the Last Supper - before the sacrifice had actually occurred. While I assume this question has been tackled by at least one thinker in the past 2,000 years, I thought it might be easier to find a reply by posting it here. Any suggestions?

 

[Sanosuke]

God is not limited by space or time. Since God exists beyond the flow of time, He does not need to be restricted even when He is in the physical world. If your friend objects to this, just remind him/her that Jesus is God: He can do what He wants. ^^

 

[Authorkat]

Tell him to read the book of John chapter 6. Jesus could have told the disciples who left Him that He didn’t really mean His body literally, but He didn’t change his words. In verse 60 some disciples say to Jesus, “‘This saying is hard; who can accept it?’” It was hard then, and it’s hard now. We have to accept it with faith.

Remind your friend that nothing is impossible with God. That’s somewhere in the Bible too.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The Last Supper looks forward to the Cross in time. Just as John 6 looks forward in time to the Last Supper. just thinking on the words (which is sometimes dangerous for me). Christ says This is My Body which is being given for you. For this is My Blood…which is being shed or in Luke "which shall be shed. Nowhere do I find This is My body which has been given or My Blood which has been shed.

We receive the Crucified and Glorified Body of Christ in the Eucharist. But the apostles received in the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Christ that was in the process of being Sacrificed, anticipating the Cross. Christ’s crucified Body wasn’t present at the Last supper, He hadn’t been crucified yet. The Last Supper was the beginning of the process of the crucifixion.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Andreas Hofer:

he couldn’t see how Christ’s crucified body could have been present at the Last Supper - before the sacrifice had actually occurred

Perhaps this appoach might help…
Consider prophesy. Prophesy is possible because God gives knowledge of a future event to the prophet, knowledge of a future event is made present - before it has actually occurred. God can do this because God is outside of our time; our past, our present and our future are all present to God simultaniously and because He is all-powerful. What happened at the Last Supper is similar to a prophesy only much greater. At the Last Supper, the sacrifice of Calvary was ‘pre-presented’; it was more than just a prophesy because not only was knowledge of the future sacrifice made known but the very substance of the future sacrifice itself (Jesus) was made present under the appearance of bread and wine. I think, St. Augustine of Hippo said something like, “At the Last Supper, Jesus held himself in his hands.”

Likewise today at Mass, the sacrifice of Calvary is ‘re-presented’; it is more than just a memorial because not only is the past sacrifice recalled to mind but the very substance of the past sacrifice itself (Jesus) is made present under the appearance of bread and wine. St. Paul says, “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor 10:16)

Todd

 

[martino]

Although Christ’s death on the cross had yet to occur during the Last Supper, it is important to remember that the Last Supper and the crucifixion are two parts of the same event. At the Last Supper the sacrifice was begun and upon Calvary it was finished!

If his debate was hinged on that single point then he is only a millimeter away from the Truth!

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut so far. A lot of good stuff.

 

[JimG]

Christ at the Last Supper, through the Eucharist, makes his Apostles present at the Crucifixion, which was to occur the next day. The Eucharist in fact, being one body, and one sacrifice, mysteriously connects together all places and times in which it is celebrated. We, twenty centuries later in time and displaced in space, are put into direct contact with the events of our salvation.

Although this is not a biblical or even theological argument, it might help to consider the Eucharist as a “wormhole” with it’s origin at the Crucifixion, and its endpoints at every consecrated host and chalice.

JimG

 

[Shiann]

My daughter had her First Communion this spring, and since we were involved in a number of focused retreats and bible study, the question of the Eucharist obviously came up.

The priest was quick to point out to the children that this WAS ACTUALLY the body of Christ, but not the body and blood that encompasses cells and earthly flesh, but the body and blood was Jesus’ actual divine soul that we consume. I think he was trying to avoid some of the children thinking the species would taste like blood and flesh. But it got me thinking…

Then this question added to that as well… because if what the priest said was true, Jesus as divine was absolutely able to offer his spiritual soul for consumption with his apostles during the Last Supper. And this would have been a wonderful experience for the apostles to experience, and why it makes the Mass now so timeless and beautiful.

I hope I am thinking about this correctly… I’m still new to the ‘apologetics’ life of Catholicism. I find it much more gratifying than when I just believed because I was told to… without much thought to ‘why’.

 

[metal1633]

Andreas Hofer:

A Protestant friend-of-a-friend recently brought up in debate that he had a problem with the Catholic belief in the Eucharist because he couldn’t see how Christ’s crucified body could have been present at the Last Supper - before the sacrifice had actually occurred.

As has been said God is not bound by time. But there is more to it than that. John describes Christ as “a Lamb slain from the foundations of the world”. It touched us at one point in history but it is an eternal event. Your protestant friend is thinking after the flesh not the Spirit. He is imposing his own time and flesh bound perspective on what is to the Lord an ever present reality.

 

[metal1633]

Shiann:

The priest was quick to point out to the children that this WAS ACTUALLY the body of Christ, but not the body and blood that encompasses cells and earthly flesh, but the body and blood was Jesus’ actual divine soul that we consume. I think he was trying to avoid some of the children thinking the species would taste like blood and flesh.

Interesting. Perhaps that was the intent of the Priest. Nevertheless he was wrong. No wonder most American Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.

The Presence of Christ under the appearance of the Eucharistic Spieces is call “REAL” to encompass ever type of reality. It IS His Body and Blood, cells and all. It is His Soul and Spirit also. It is the WHOLE Christ present in each of the Spieces and in all of their parts.

 

[JimG]

Shiann:

The priest was quick to point out to the children that this WAS ACTUALLY the body of Christ, but not the body and blood that encompasses cells and earthly flesh, but the body and blood was Jesus’ actual divine soul that we consume. I think he was trying to avoid some of the children thinking the species would taste like blood and flesh. But it got me thinking…
… because if what the priest said was true, Jesus as divine was absolutely able to offer his spiritual soul for consumption with his apostles during the Last Supper.

Certainly we do receive the spiritual soul of Jesus in the Eucharist. But I think we have to be careful not to water down Jesus’ words “This is my body, this is my blood.” The Eucharist is in fact the body and blood of Christ, and where His body and blood are, so is his soul and divinity, his whole person.

We worry about the seeming “physicality” of such a concept. But remember, no matter what we do to the consecrated host, Jesus body remains untouched, whole and entire, under the appearances of bread and wine. Thus we can break or consume the host without affecting Jesus body, which always remains whole.

JimG

 

[Charliemac]

metal1633:

Interesting. Perhaps that was the intent of the Priest. Nevertheless he was wrong. No wonder most American Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.

The Presence of Christ under the appearance of the Eucharistic Spieces is call “REAL” to encompass ever type of reality. It IS His Body and Blood, cells and all. It is His Soul and Spirit also. It is the WHOLE Christ present in each of the Spieces and in all of their parts.

Metal1633,

I agree with you, this priest was trying to make it easy for the children. Nice, but dangerous. The Eucharist is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ. I believe, not because I was taught by a nun, but because I was given the gift of Faith. Any other answer is a deception.

**Andreas Hofer, **

You might try this. Consider that that the Word was made Flesh and dwelt amongst us. Yes, the Incarnation was a miracle no less than the Eucharist. The all powerful and eternal Son of God, who existed before time, took flesh and was born to us. So, the Lord Jesus was born to Mary on that day some 2000 years ago. But where was he before that?

Consider also, that the same all powerful and ever living God was Crucified, died and was buried. Yeah, but did he really die. Sure did, look it up.

Consider that this same Jesus rose from the dead. No less God before His birth, or during His life or after His death and certainly no more God after His Resurrection. This same Jesus, fed the multitudes, drove out demons and healed the sick, he even walked on water and calmed the storm. He raised the Centurions daughter, and even raised Lazarus who was so dead he stunk.

But all this is nothing compared to raising Himself from the dead. So, anyone who believes these things, as all Christians do, believes that Jesus, Lord or Lords and King of Kings, has the power to bend and change the natural world at His Will. Beyond that, we must believe that he has the power to create, to transform, and to transubstantiate. Do you agree that God has the power to change a dog into a fish, or a tree into a whale. Well why not a dog into a fish that still has the accidents of a dog, or a piece of bread into His body and blood that has the accidents of bread? It is not possible for us to conceive in our limited minds of a limit on the infinite majesty of God.

Now, in light of all this, we must accept that when He said, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood you will have no life in you,” He was aware that at the appointed time he would say the words of consecration. He would say, “THIS IS MY BODY,” and He would give His flesh to eat. He would say, “THIS IS MY BLOOD,” and He would give His blood to drink. But to whom did he give it? Jesus gave the Eucharist to you, to me and to the disciples present at the Supper. Don’t get hung up on His crucified Body, not yet crucified. That is a bad argument. Jesus didn’t say, this is my Crucified Body, He said, “THIS IS MY BODY.” The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ before during and after is life death and resurrection. You cannot parse God, and you don’t need to get into “space time” arguments either.

I hope this suggestion is helpful.

Charliemac