Philosophy of Heaven

[FightingFat]

Help! I’m conversing with a Buddhist about Heaven which I have said is complete immersion in God, complete communion, is the most fulfilled I can be in my whole being.

My Buddhist friend asserts that without the extinction of the illusion of Self, that completeness would be incomplete - in the end, who is experiencing Heaven?

I think I disagree with his assertion, I do not understand why “the illusion of Self” must be extinct. After all, God is Triune, a community of Persons- the transcendent Archetype of unity-in-love-without-rivalry.

Am I on the right track? Where is he going with this?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Dameedna]

Both religions speak of the same thing, but it different ways.

When people say their will , will be in alignment of Gods, it means they will lose their attachment to themselves and their own will so completely, that they will merge/be in communion with God.

Salvation for christians, is the same thing as enlightenment to buddhists.

It is about reaching heaven/ Nivrana.

Christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu mystics are all saying the same thing. The doctrine of each religion, helps you get there depending on who you are, but the point is the same.

 

[FightingFat]

Both religions speak of the same thing, but it different ways.

When people say their will , will become Gods, it means they will lose their attachment to themselves and their own will so completely that they will merge/be in communion with God.

Is it the same thing? Does Christian doctrine teach that we will be indistinct from God?

 

[Dameedna]

Is it the same thing? Does Christian doctrine teach that we will be indistinct from God?

No it teaches that your will, will be the same as Gods, and you will be in communion with him.

Budhhaism is saying the same thing.

This is what the mystics said, not each and every different christian denomination.

 

[FightingFat]

No it teaches that your will, will be the same as Gods, and you will be in communion with him.

Budhhaism is saying the same thing.

This is what the mystics said, not each and every different christian denomination.

So, we are still distinct from God. I thought that Buddhism stated that the extinction of the illusion of Self was necessary to enter Nibbana?

 

[Dameedna]

So, we are still distinct from God. I thought that Buddhism stated that the extinction of the illusion of Self was necessary to enter Nibbana?

I think it’s very conceptual, but if you can go with it as a idea then that might be a good place to start.

You are you, right now. You are not god, but what and who will you become, when your will is perfectly in alignment with god as your doctrine does tell you? You certainly won’t be “you” (right now) anymore will you?

People often say, “god will make, or help me align my will to his when I get into heaven and I will be happy”. They still think they can hold onto “themselves” while doing this. The person thinking these thoughts, is not in alignment with God however.

The ignore the fact, that WHO THEY ARE right now, is in fact their will not Gods. So once their will, is in alignment with God, WHO THEY ARE right now, no longer exist.

Just like who you were 5 minutes ago, no longer exists(but in a much, much smaller way).

The way the buddha describes the complete submission of the soul, is to say that he lost his attatchment to himself, IE his own will. He reached perfect communion with what “you” as a christian called God. He reached nirvana, what you call heaven.

He was still alive, but he took a good ole peek at it and saw it for what it was and was at peace

 

[FightingFat]

I like it- it’s good, but I still am not sure about this will of God thing. Life is a learning process, one where we learn to open our minds to the message of what is harmonious with our natus. I don’t think this means abandoning our own will, does it? More developing it to the point where it grasps what God wants for us- i.e. to be perfectly fulfilled.

How does that sound?

Also, regarding the “people say…” bit, that’s not really very Catholic. We believe in Purgatory. In other words, even if you are sincere in your attempts to be faithful and die in the grace and love of God, if you’re not, that is, if you do not shed all your sin (which not many of us do, let’s face it) you can’t enter into the beatific vision. Thus we go to Purgatory until we are cleansed of our sin and can enter into the beatific vision. So God doesn’t change us, we have to change ourselves.

 

[Dameedna]

I like it- it’s good, but I still am not sure about this will of God thing. Life is a learning process, one where we learn to open our minds to the message of what is harmonious with our natus. I don’t think this means abandoning our own will, does it? More developing it to the point where it grasps what God wants for us- i.e. to be perfectly fulfilled.

How does that sound?

These concepts are very confusing to me too and it’s only through reading other people’s understandings that I’ve begun to grasp it myself.

I think the difficulty here, is that we really do “love” being alive and have an identity that we attribute to ourselves. And it is not “god” who is alive(and typing on the computer) it is me. I think I’m me, I’m pretty sure I’m me and I like living. I don’t want to lose me.

The thought of “losing your attachment” to yourself, is like saying “Well I might as well not exist”. That’s what the buddhist philosophy sounds like to most of us in the West and why many think of it as an athiest religion. It’s not really.

In a very simple form, think of this…

When you learn something new, does the old you still exist? No of course not. You are different…but still …you. What does a christian say when he means he is “reborn”? he’s still him isn’t he? But he’s completely different. So the old him, no longer exists. The attachment we have to our identity is an illusion because we change every minute, and it is THIS attachment that the buddhist talks about. The sooner you can accept the need to let it go, the sooner and quicker you grow as a person. Your identity is no longer tied up, with your life and beliefs. You are not tied to this earthly existance because you realize it’s temporal. It’s not “you” it’s an opportunity for growth.

You are spot on, in that it is a learning process. We recognize that as does the buddhist. How on earth can you define yourself as you, when the old “you” doesn’t exist?

I guess the real question is, do you “lose” self-awareness when you align with God. In a sense yes and in a sense No(as I understand it). Just like “you” change and are no longer the former you, when you align with God, you have to let go of your ideas(like the process of change and growth) and become a new you, and a perfect you.

Life strips us bare. It’ takes everything from us, including “life” itself. As brutal as it sounds…how else could we possibly lose our attatchment to ourselves, while still knowing we exist unless we live…and also die?

Yeah,…it’s rather spooky stuff. Sounds similar to your beliefs…but not quite the same, and won’t quite feel right to you

Buddhaism and christianity are probably not as different as you may think

 

[Dameedna]

Also, regarding the “people say…” bit, that’s not really very Catholic. We believe in Purgatory. In other words, even if you are sincere in your attempts to be faithful and die in the grace and love of God, if you’re not, that is, if you do not shed all your sin (which not many of us do, let’s face it) you can’t enter into the beatific vision. Thus we go to Purgatory until we are cleansed of our sin and can enter into the beatific vision. So God doesn’t change us, we have to change ourselves.

Okay, I noticed your edit here and will respond.

I am not catholic, I am an agnostic(former militant athiest) What I am trying to do, is help you understand your friend in terms of how it relates to christianity.

But being agnostic and not catholic, we will fundamently disagree on the nature of your religion(possibly). All, I can really do, is ty and help you , to understand your friend and relate it to christian concepts. I won’t argue doctrine with you, because it doesn’t really mater.

In the case of purgatory, I think the catholics almost have it right on this one, surprisingly. Is there any human who you can think of, or imagine that would not need “some work done” before they reach a state of perfection?

Purgatory, is probably quite accurate and fits, conceptually with the buddhist concept of relearning and re-living the mistake until you get it right. They call it reincarnation. The literalists, think they will come back onto the planet as worms…sigh. Doesn’t really help the buddhist cause.

 

[Ahimsa]

In the case of purgatory, I think the catholics almost have it right on this one, surprisingly. Is there any human who you can think of, or imagine that would not need “some work done” before they reach a state of perfection?

Yes, the Catholic idea of Purgatory functions similarly to the Buddhist idea of rebirth.

 

[nilofc]

It’s not the same… Catholics worship the one and true God.

Jesus died and rose from the dead and now in heaven.

Buddha is dead rotten and has become worm food.

Need I say more?