Philosophy: Reason and Mystery

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There are things we can figure out (reason). There are things that have been revealed (revelation). Some of the things in revelation we can figure other things out from using reason, but there are also things that are simply mystery. We cannot figure them out.

What I am curious about is how we can figure out what we cannot figure out. There are limits to reason and things that God intended to leave as mystery. Paul spoke of untrackable things; Peter spoke of things that angels longed to look into that have been revealed, yet John was prohibited from writing down certain parts of the revelation he was given. Some things are mystery, and if we try to figure them out, then we will get them wrong.

Having said that, I wonder if it is possible that we perhaps, at times, have extended the reach of reason beyond its capacity in some areas that God intends for us to view as mystery. I am not saying lightning is a mystery, so don’t try to understand it. I am saying perhaps there are some thngs that are positively and absolutely beyond human ability to reason out, and these things are in His will for us to leave as mystery and not to even try to investigate. Stop right there, He will say, for that is where you start babbling.

Some will happily jump in at this point with this or that issue as demonstrative of this idea. Phooey. Let’s explore the idea of a definite boundary between reason and mystery. Let’s explore the idea that some things are to be left as mystery. Do not try to go around the guardian cherubs, for they have swords.
 
There is a definate boundary between reason and mysteries, there are so many things that God has done that our small minds will nerver understand, for example: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and transubstantiation. These are great mysteries that only our Faith tells us to believe.
 
I don’t think there is a discernable,definite boundary between reason and mystery. Reason,or logos,and mystery coincide in faith. Jesus Christ was logos incarnate and he is also a mystery,being true God and true man.
 
Well, first I’d define reason: the ability to gain new knowledge by inference, based solely on knowledge already possessed.

So what is “beyond reason” is that which cannot be inferred. For example:

I know Jim is a human.
I know many humans are over six feet tall.
Therefore Jim is over six feet tall.

The conclusion can’t be inferred from what I know. I would have to meet Jim personally to reach the conclusion regarding his height; it is “beyond reason.”

So the mysteries God has revealed to us (and those He hasn’t) are beyond the reach of inference based on what we know. I would put pretty much everything connected with the Incarnation and Salvation in this realm.

Here’s the question I think you’re getting to, TS: Can that which is “beyond reason” violate reason?

Does this question sound familiar? 😃
 
My old prof Dennis Cliff used to say that Art must have mystery.

Basically learning Art is learning about rules: what works.

But having learned that, then truly great artists break those rules. And that imparts mystery into their work. So that their work is no longer about mystery but is mystery.

I have always believed that truly great works of Art open a kind of hole in the universe between the realm of the material and the realm of the spiritual where silence is the only appropriate response.

How do we become artists working the medium of our lives? Or is that about God? God as the Great Potter?
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Somebody probably put that sign on everything. Lucky few of us could read that sign.
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But are there places where it is appropriate? Some parts of bioethics, perhaps, with allusions to Frankenstein?
 
Truthstalker said:
But are there places where it is appropriate? Some parts of bioethics, perhaps, with allusions to Frankenstein?
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Ah! I see where you are going with this. And a couple of things come up.

I think that if folks are looking for a place where God is that they will find such a place.

If they are looking for a place where God is absent, they will find such a place.

It’s been a while since I read Frankenstein. Was the problem with Frankenstein the problem that he was man-made or that he was abused, spurned, exiled by an unloving creator?
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Ah! I see where you are going with this. And a couple of things come up.

I think that if folks are looking for a place where God is that they will find such a place.

If they are looking for a place where God is absent, they will find such a place.

It’s been a while since I read Frankenstein. Was the problem with Frankenstein the problem that he was man-made or that he was abused, spurned, exiled by an unloving creator?
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If I remember it correctly (some 20+ years ago) the issue is the issue of whether there are some things, such as creating a living being, that are solely the province of God. On this thread I am wondering if there are places where angels fear to tread and we better not walk on the grass either. There are places we can boldly go, and all kinds of fruit grows there, but perhaps there is still a tree somewhere with a “Keep Off!” sign. When we wander near it we get, at best, confused, and at worst, we err. There may be some questions that we cannot answer, either because there really is no answer (“what is the negative square root of three?”) or the answer is beyond human understanding (see Ephesians 3 for some hints of "unsearchable/untrackable) or is simply not given to us yet (1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.)

Chesterton made the analogy that where there is a walled garden, the children will play up to the wall, but where there is no wall, the children will be found huddled in a frightened circle, as far from any possible edge as they can get, and no longer play.

Are there walls? Are we now entitled to fearlessly pursue any mystery, because all knowledge is now open to us, and we can do whatever we want, pursue any thought we wish to its ultimate conclusion, and have all wisdom, now, without restraint? Or are some things, such as the timing of the second coming, reserved knoweldge? Rhetorical. What else is reserved?
 
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Truthstalker:
If I remember it correctly (some 20+ years ago) the issue is the issue of whether there are some things, such as creating a living being, that are solely the province of God.
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And perhaps because we love imperfectly while God is Love.
 
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Truthstalker:
Chesterton made the analogy that where there is a walled garden, the children will play up to the wall, but where there is no wall, the children will be found huddled in a frightened circle, as far from any possible edge as they can get, and no longer play.
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Yes. His hortus conclusus. We need stability zones before we are able to venture out and learn from our experiences.
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Truthstalker:
Are there walls? Are we now entitled to fearlessly pursue any mystery, because all knowledge is now open to us, and we can do whatever we want, pursue any thought we wish to its ultimate conclusion, and have all wisdom, now, without restraint?
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Well, like we both said, I think that without walls we simply will not venture out. The question is how we interpret those walls. Are they there for our protection and to help us to learn? Or are they there to prevent us from getting our own way?

In many respects using the wall to get our own way is a phyrric victory.
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Truthstalker:
Or are some things, such as the timing of the second coming, reserved knoweldge? Rhetorical. What else is reserved?
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I don’t know. Some things may not be reserved per se; they simply don’t interest me. The Age of the Earth for example. I just can’t drum up any interest in this debate which for some seems to consume every second of their days. Same with the Creation/Evolution debate.
 
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