Philosophy: The Descent of the West into Night

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I doubt many Catholics have read Francis Schaeffer, but I have seen similar ideas posted around here. Some Catholics seem to readily blame the reformers for being the spiritual grandparents of today’s nihilism (I’ve done it myself), and William of Occam gets a discommendation medal sometimes for being a bad boy, but I’m wondering what the Catholic critique is of the decline of the West. The reformers were reacting against things in the Church, but they were not the sole cause, and arguably not the cause, of the problems we are now having.
 
I think Jacques Maritain, Pope John Paul II, and also the writer George Wiegel give good arguments from a Catholic perspective why there is a lot of nihilism in the West, as well as the reduction of religious belief. The Protestant Reformation is one cause but also another was the rise of science and the disaster with Galileo and the Inquisition, as well as the secularisation of learning in the universities. The Enlightenment and revival of skepticism (especially in the form of philosophers such as Kant and Hume) also had powerful effects on religion, as did the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism. All these things in their own way helped wrest the control of learning, religion, political power, commerce, social morality, law, economics and science away from the Church.
 
The Decline of the West! Since grace builds on nature, and small mistakes in the beginning lead to large ones down the road–I think our civilization got derailed as much by the philosophers as by the theologian Luther. In sofar as philosophy departed from nature, that far did men depart from nature and nature’s God.
 
Ani_Ibi said:
How did philosophy depart from nature?
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Well, with Descartes, Locke, Berkeley and Hume, we get a disconnect from natural law, from the Aristotelian understanding of the world, where the main task is to understand the nature of things and build on that. For Aristotle, you unpack a discipline rather than construct it. The truth is inherent in the object, and you are measured by the object. It keeps things much more objective. Sorry this is very general. Not much time for the next two weeks…
 
toaslan said:
Well, with Descartes, Locke, Berkeley and Hume, we get a disconnect from natural law, from the Aristotelian understanding of the world, where the main task is to understand the nature of things and build on that. For Aristotle, you unpack a discipline rather than construct it. The truth is inherent in the object, and you are measured by the object. It keeps things much more objective. Sorry this is very general. Not much time for the next two weeks…
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OK. I understand what you are saying now. Thanks for this.
 
The decline of the West cannot be laid solely at the feet of the reformers. I see them as more of a symptom rather than a cause. The rise of nationalism gave the reformers their power to lead others out of the Church as the Church’s political power dwindled.

When governments no longer saw themselves as Catholic first, the Church lost its ability to discipline dissenters. Dissension became the fashion and that, ultimately, has led to the downfall of Western civilization, not to its prominence as so many who did dissent believed would happen.

The rise of the Enlightenment and other non-Christian philosophies created systems that, in the end, they could not control since they do not have eternal truth as their basis but only the notions of rebellious and sinful men.
 
"Men of Gondor and Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails… when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship… but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when all hope comes crashing down, but it is NOT this day! This day, we fight! For all that you hold dear, stand, Men of the West! "

(And Women.🙂 )

This is Aragorn at the Black Gate of Mordor. A speech I still cannot believe made it into the movie.👍
 
cpayne said:
"Men of Gondor and Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails… when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship… but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when all hope comes crashing down, but it is NOT this day! This day, we fight! For all that you hold dear, stand, Men of the West! "

(And Women.🙂 )

This is Aragorn at the Black Gate of Mordor. A speech I still cannot believe made it into the movie.👍
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Some things just slip through. I thought it was very pointedly a comment on contemporary international politics.
 
cpayne said:
"Men of Gondor and Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails… when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship… but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when all hope comes crashing down, but it is NOT this day! This day, we fight! For all that you hold dear, stand, Men of the West! "
(And Women. )
This is Aragorn at the Black Gate of Mordor. A speech I still cannot believe made it into the movie.👍
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It reminded me of the St. Krispin’s Day speech–yes? And what’s this about including women? Aragorn is OBVIOUSLY using “men” generically, just like good old Shakespeare did, right? * Never give in, never surrender *on this point!

I took it to mean that some day their civilization may fall, but not today-- NOT if they were ready to fight and die for that civilization.
 
toaslan said:
It reminded me of the St. Krispin’s Day speech–yes? And what’s this about including women? Aragorn is OBVIOUSLY using “men” generically, just like good old Shakespeare did, right? * Never give in, never surrender *on this point!

I took it to mean that some day their civilization may fall, but not today-- NOT if they were ready to fight and die for that civilization.
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Yes, very reminiscent of Krispin’s Day–I just never thought we’d hear something like that in popular culture again, 400 years after the original.

You’re right on the “men” part. I added women because there are women posting on this thread and I probably felt condescending, like they couldn’t figure out what Aragorn meant without my help. My apologies, women.
 
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toaslan:
It reminded me of the St. Krispin’s Day speech–yes?
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Totally! Good catch, toaslan.
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toaslan:
I took it to mean that some day their civilization may fall, but not today-- NOT if they were ready to fight and die for that civilization.
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It reminds me also of this:

If Philosophy is to speak to us in times such as these (the Age of Unreason) then what form must it take?

Who will write the St Krispin’s Day challenge for our age?
 
My kid’s joke: What’s a pirate’s favorite letter? (The answer is in Post 13.)

I know it’s a lame joke. That’s why I blamed it on my kid.

Thinking of the OP, you know what would be a great consult on this question: Augustine’s City of God. A great civilization sinking, the barbarians literally knocking down defenses–and yet above everything, Augustine sees the City of God that will never end, no matter what happens to the Empire.

I’m not giving up on the West; in fact, I think a mighty renewal is possible. But even if decline continues, nihil desperandum–it will never be “the end.” What Western Christianity holds as true will continue to be held as true, somewhere else.
 
cpayne said:
My kid’s joke: What’s a pirate’s favorite letter? (The answer is in Post 13.)

I know it’s a lame joke. That’s why I blamed it on my kid.
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😃
Augustine sees the City of God that will never end, no matter what happens to the Empire.
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I’m not giving up on the West…even if decline continues, nihil desperandum–it will never be “the end.” What Western Christianity holds as true will continue to be held as true, somewhere else.
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yes. My comfort is that we are on the winning side (this amazing Western Civilization we are privileged to inherit may eventually go underground–it is too inherently powerful to dissolve away) and it does all come right in the end. Christ is the Victor; Western Civilization is a true sparkle reflected by Heaven, where this world’s beauty and promise is fulfilled beyond desire. Meanwhile, our small swords upraise with Aragorn’s on this, Western Civilization’s St. Crispin’s Day!
 
Then there’s the Black Plague theory. In it, there were mighty fine priests until the Black Plague. They comforted the dying but contracted the plague and so died, leaving the ranks of the clergy devastated. After that there was a system of uneducated clergy who learned the liturgy and not much else from their equally ignorant pastor, and this led to widespread ignorance of Catholicism. Trent answered this by requiring the education of priests, but by then so much damage had been done that on the whole most priests could not defend the church against the reformers, and many joined in on the reformation. Theology became an effort of the elite, particularly in Catholicism, so that the clergy were knowledgeable but the laity weren’t. Today we have philosophers of an esoteric caliber who have lost all touch with reality but are convinced they are the new elite to lead civilization. Some of these philosophers are in Hollywoord and spread their message via film or tv.

Hmmmm. Watcha think? It’s a theory anyway. Credible? Inedible? Historical? Hysterical? Simplistic? Heuristic? Psychotic? Idiotic? True? Blue (sorry I ran out of rhyming adjectives)?
 
It’s plausible. You know, at a certain point (1200s or so), the CC was planning a major engagement with Islam–not another Crusade, but an evangelistic campaign. I think Aquinas’s Summa Contra Gentiles was written as part of this.

At that point in history, along comes the Black Death (mid-1300s)–devastates Europe; the 100-Years War (fought entirely in Europe); and the second Great Schism in Rome and Avignon (Europe needs guidance desperately and the CC seems adrift at the top ranks). Out of this ferment comes the Reformation period for a couple of hundred years.

I have no idea what was going on with all this, but I think we might still be feeling the effects. (Well, of course we are :doh2: . Christianity is still split, Islam is disengaging itself, secular culture is a giant death wish, and so on. Not to be depressing or anything. But we need the renewal of God; Western Civ can’t save itself, as wonderful as it is. It’s wonderful because founded on wonderful Truth–the Truth saves.)
 
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Truthstalker:
Then there’s the Black Plague theory. In it, there were mighty fine priests until the Black Plague. They comforted the dying but contracted the plague and so died, leaving the ranks of the clergy devastated. After that there was a system of uneducated clergy who learned the liturgy and not much else from their equally ignorant pastor, and this led to widespread ignorance of Catholicism. Trent answered this by requiring the education of priests, but by then so much damage had been done that on the whole most priests could not defend the church against the reformers, and many joined in on the reformation.
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Luther was a survivor of the Wittenburg Plague. He was very highly educated, in fact was a Biblical scholar. No flies on him.

A person can be very highly intelligent but still be prone to cognitive distortions.
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Truthstalker:
Theology became an effort of the elite, particularly in Catholicism, so that the clergy were knowledgeable but the laity weren’t.
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Plato’s Republic? What’s true ain’t new?
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Truthstalker:
Today we have philosophers of an esoteric caliber who have lost all touch with reality but are convinced they are the new elite to lead civilization. Some of these philosophers are in Hollywoord and spread their message via film or tv.
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Folks can claim to be philosophers. How shall we define philosophy? What are the hallmarks of philosophy? How do we know when philosophy is happening?
 
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