Philosophy: Whether grace has a physical location

[Truthstalker]

It seems that grace is physically located in sacramentals and people and can be imparted. Therefore it seems that grace has a physical location. If that is so, how is it attached to physical objects efficaciously?

 

[JimG]

If, by grace you mean sanctifying grace, it has traditionally been defined as a created share of God’s life, giving the soul the ability to exist in heaven. Actual grace (the 2nd kind) is defined as a supernatural help given by God as needed.

Since grace abides in the soul, and the soul is not physical (i.e., the human soul), then grace does not have a physical location.

The sacraments and sacramentals are means of grace, but not locations of grace.

 

[Cari]

I’d say sacramentals are vessels, or channels for grace. So if I’m listening to, say, Howard Stern on my radio dial 94.2, Mr. Stern isn’t actually physically located there (because that would mean I could literally silence him, and wouldn’t that be nice?)- rather, poor 94.2, and, by extention, my radio, have become channels for his- er- broadcast.

So it is with sacramentals. Grace flows through the holy water, blessed salt, Miraculous medal, etc. It isn’t located there.

This was way easier than your “are you really reading this” post.

 

[Truthstalker]

If, by grace you mean sanctifying grace, it has traditionally been defined as a created share of God’s life, giving the soul the ability to exist in heaven. Actual grace (the 2nd kind) is defined as a supernatural help given by God as needed.

Since grace abides in the soul, and the soul is not physical (i.e., the human soul), then grace does not have a physical location.

The sacraments and sacramentals are means of grace, but not locations of grace.

Please cite sources.

I’d say sacramentals are vessels, or channels for grace. So if I’m listening to, say, Howard Stern on my radio dial 94.2, Mr. Stern isn’t actually physically located there (because that would mean I could literally silence him, and wouldn’t that be nice?)- rather, poor 94.2, and, by extention, my radio, have become channels for his- er- broadcast.

So it is with sacramentals. Grace flows through the holy water, blessed salt, Miraculous medal, etc. It isn’t located there.

How are these things channels of grace?

This was way easier than your “are you really reading this” post.

Don’t count on it.

 

[Cari]

How are these things channels of grace?

Don’t know. Don’t know how the radio works, either, but it does.

 

[Truthstalker]

Don’t know. Don’t know how the radio works, either, but it does.

Ah, but that is the question!

How does it work? How can we, or can we, obtain grace more effectively, or block it? What are the mechanics of it?

 

[Nita]

Try Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part III, Question 62, Article 3 - titled “Whether the Sacraments of the New Law Contain Grace”. Here’s a website if you don’t have the books.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0023/_PEL.HTM#1M0

Or are you looking for new answers to old questions?

Nita

 

[Truthstalker]

Try Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part III, Question 62, Article 3 - titled “Whether the Sacraments of the New Law Contain Grace”. Here’s a website if you don’t have the books.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0023/_PEL.HTM#1M0

Or are you looking for new answers to old questions?

Nita

I read through it, eyes somewhat glazed. Can you break it down in modern terms?

I am looking for the answers to the questions. It seems to me that Aquinas in the 1200s should not be the last one to have thought on this.

 

[Nita]

It’s always fun for me to read your threads. Your mind heads places mine has also - only thing is, mine went there quite a few years ago! Have a feeling I may be a lot older than you. So, before I get to Aquinas, just some thoughts that long ago helped me to accept that this particular question was never going to get answered in the complete way my mind sought.

When we speak of grace (sanctifying), we are speaking of **“life”, **spiritual/supernatural life. So, to try to understand where and how it is contained in something, passed on, received, is difficult - impossible might be closer to it!

I thought just of physical **“life”. **It is :contained" in our physical bodies. It is brought there through the presence of our immaterial soul. Exactly “how” does the soul impart physical life into the physical components of our bodies? Just what “IS” that life? (Not what it does, but what is it?) We can’t even understand questions that fundamental at the physical level, so it’s not surprising we can’t at the spiritual.

Re Aquinas: (I’m adding in brackets the sacramental connect to the analogy)
I don’t know if you read the sections prior to Article 3. I would have done better to connect you to Article 1 - it’s a little more understandable. You asked about the “mechanics” of grace; “How does it work”. Well, you probably never will get that question answered to your satisfaction, but I liked the analogy Aquinas gave in Article 1 regarding the connection of grace to the sacramental matter.
Quote:
Reply Obj. 2** An instrument (sacrament) has a twofold action; one is instrumental (imparts grace), in respect of which it works not by its own power but by the power of the principal agent (God): the other is its proper action [eg. water poured on body, cleans} which belongs to it in respect of its proper form: thus it belongs to an axe (the instrument) to cut asunder by reason of its sharpness, but to make a couch, in so far as it is the instrument of an art. But it does not accomplish the instrumental action save by exercising its proper action: for it is by cutting that it makes a couch. In like manner the coporeal sacraments by their operation, which they exercise on the body that they touch, accomplish through the Divine institution an instrumental operation on the soul; for example, the water of baptism, in respect of its proper power, and thereby, inasmuch as it is the instrument of the Divine power, cleanses the soul: since from soul and body one thing is made. And thus it is that Augustine says that it touches the body and cleanses the heart.

How can we, or can we, obtain grace more effectively, or block it?
We obtain it more effectively by desiring it more, living God’s will more fully, (equivalent to opening the door to allow grace to flow in - wider the doors open, the more can flow in.) We block it through deliberate sin, failure to cooperate and use the grace already given. (equivalent to opening the door only a little, or piling rocks in front of the opening.) Deliberate mortal sin is like closing the door. Sincere confession opens it again.

Nita