Phoebe a deacon?

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Irishgal49

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Hi all,

I was curious about something. I read this in the Bible:

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (NIV)

This came up in a discussion with someone who wanted to know why the Catholic Church didn’t ordain women as deacons when Phoebe was.

Now I heard the word “deaconess” which is the wife of a deacon, but I was told that the Greek was NOT the feminine deaconess, but, rather the masculine “deacon”. Well I didn’t see that per se, but I did find that the exact same word “deacon” that is in 1 Timothy 3:12 (a man desiring the office of a deacon) is the EXACT same word Paul uses to describe Phoebe.

I’m trying to debate this with a person who thinks the Catholic Church suppresses women in Church history. I also am confused that this is the same word. In Strong’s its 1249 and it’s translated “diakonos”. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Lorrie
 
Irishgal49 said:
Hi all,

I was curious about something. I read this in the Bible:

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (NIV)

This came up in a discussion with someone who wanted to know why the Catholic Church didn’t ordain women as deacons when Phoebe was.

Now I heard the word “deaconess” which is the wife of a deacon, but I was told that the Greek was NOT the feminine deaconess, but, rather the masculine “deacon”. Well I didn’t see that per se, but I did find that the exact same word “deacon” that is in 1 Timothy 3:12 (a man desiring the office of a deacon) is the EXACT same word Paul uses to describe Phoebe.

I’m trying to debate this with a person who thinks the Catholic Church suppresses women in Church history. I also am confused that this is the same word. In Strong’s its 1249 and it’s translated “diakonos”. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Lorrie
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The NIV is really really bad,
the text of Romani 16:1-2
1 Commendo autem vobis Phœben sororem nostram, quæ est in ministerio Ecclesiæ, quæ est in Cenchris:
2 ut eam suscipiatis in Domino digne sanctis: et assistatis ei in quocumque negotio vestri indiguerit: etenim ipsa quoque astitit multis, et mihi ipsi.

(sororem means sister not deacon)
 
Irishgal49 said:
Hi all,

I was curious about something. I read this in the Bible:

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (NIV)

This came up in a discussion with someone who wanted to know why the Catholic Church didn’t ordain women as deacons when Phoebe was.

Now I heard the word “deaconess” which is the wife of a deacon, but I was told that the Greek was NOT the feminine deaconess, but, rather the masculine “deacon”. Well I didn’t see that per se, but I did find that the exact same word “deacon” that is in 1 Timothy 3:12 (a man desiring the office of a deacon) is the EXACT same word Paul uses to describe Phoebe.

I’m trying to debate this with a person who thinks the Catholic Church suppresses women in Church history. I also am confused that this is the same word. In Strong’s its 1249 and it’s translated “diakonos”. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Lorrie
Click to expand...
Douay-Rheims Bible:

1 And I commend to you Phœbe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church that is in Cenchrea:
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
The NIV is really really bad,
the text of Romani 16:1-2
1 Commendo autem vobis Phœben sororem nostram, quæ est in ministerio Ecclesiæ, quæ est in Cenchris:
2 ut eam suscipiatis in Domino digne sanctis: et assistatis ei in quocumque negotio vestri indiguerit: etenim ipsa quoque astitit multis, et mihi ipsi.

(sororem means sister not deacon)
Click to expand...
It is not the word sororem that is in question. It is clearly the translation of the Koine αδελφην. There is disagreement in translating διακονον which corresponds to in ministerio in the Latin above.
 
Thank you so much. I used to have an interlinear Bible but I can’t find it after moving. That is drastically different so I think NIV may be a bad translation all the way around. This helps because you get people who throw stuff at you and I want to make sure that I can comment back and not “react”. I trust in the Church but I need to study apologetics more.

Awesome job…thanks,

Lorrie
 
I will try to get an interlinear effect for you, if that is what you are used to:

συνιστημι δε υμιν
I commend to you

φοιβην την αδελφην ημων
Pheobe our sister

ουσαν και] διακονον της εκκλησιας
[and] who is a servant (deacon) of the Church

της εν κεγχρεαις
in Cenchreae
 
Irishgal49 said:
Thank you so much. I used to have an interlinear Bible but I can’t find it after moving. That is drastically different so I think NIV may be a bad translation all the way around. This helps because you get people who throw stuff at you and I want to make sure that I can comment back and not “react”. I trust in the Church but I need to study apologetics more.

Awesome job…thanks,

Lorrie
Click to expand...
Online interlinear Bible which shows the translation to be “sister”.

scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
 
Irishgal49 said:
Thank you so much. I used to have an interlinear Bible but I can’t find it after moving. That is drastically different so I think NIV may be a bad translation all the way around. This helps because you get people who throw stuff at you and I want to make sure that I can comment back and not “react”. I trust in the Church but I need to study apologetics more.

Awesome job…thanks,

Lorrie
Click to expand...
Hi, Lorrie… as I’ve stated before, I am quite pedestrian… neither a scholar nor a theologean am I…

…I think that the problem you will find with many translations is that there’s a generous aportionment of what can be equated with poetic license (the Jehovah Witnesses being the worst, I hear) where the Biblical version reflects the theology of the denomenational group that has ordered the translation/print.

Since Greak is… well… Greak to me… when it comes to such issues as language/usage, etc. I look deeply into a text (content) that employs the pertinent issue:
1 Here is a saying that you can rely on: to want to be a presiding elder is to desire a noble task. 2 That is why the presiding elder must have an impeccable character. Husband of one wife
Click to expand...
, he must be temperate, discreet and courteous, hospitable and a good teacher; 3 not a heavy drinker, nor hot-tempered, but gentle and peaceable, not avaricious, 4 a man who manages his own household well and brings his children up to obey him and be well-behaved: 5 how can any man who does not understand how to manage his own household take care of the Church of God? 6 He should not be a new convert, in case pride should turn his head and he incur the same condemnation as the devil. 7 It is also necessary that he be held in good repute by outsiders, so that he never falls into disrepute and into the devil’s trap. 8 Similarly, deacons must be respectable, not double-tongued, moderate in the amount of wine they drink and with no squalid greed for money. 9 They must hold to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They are first to be examined, and admitted to serve as deacons only if there is nothing against them. 11 Similarly, women must be respectable, not gossips, but sober and wholly reliable. 12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife and must be people who manage their children and households well. 13 Those of them who carry out their duties well as deacons will earn a high standing for themselves and an authoritative voice in matters concerning faith in Christ Jesus. 14 I write this to you in the hope that I may be able to come to you soon; 15 but in case I should be delayed, I want you to know how people ought to behave in God’s household – that is, in the Church of the living God, pillar and support of the truth.

St. Paul is clearly defining an exclusive male role for those to serve as ordained ministers… the only time women are mentioned it is in a very general topic to address how Christian females must comport themselves.

…as for the Church oppressing women… did you know that there was a time when females were thought to be better off not even having a simple education… not even being able to sign their own names to a document? It was the Church, through various Religious Orders, that began to change the world–many Nuns’ suffered threats and oppression on the hands of those who thought that females (their own daughters and sisters) should not be allowed to learn such skills as reading and writing… God forbid they got a whole formal education!

…society pretends to have liberated women… but if you truly look into it you will find that secular feminism has only hindered the value of the women they claim to have “saved.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
thistle said:
Online interlinear Bible which shows the translation to be “sister”.

scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
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The OP was asking about the word “diakonon”. It does not mean “sister” and the link you give does not show that it is translated sister. The word “adelphen” occurs in this verse and that is word translated as “sister”.

There are different ways to translate “diakonon”. It can simply mean servant. Because it is also used to refer to ordained deacons, some people use the verse to support arguments for women’s ordination.
 
αδελφη (adelphe) Koine = soror (accusative form - sororem) Latin = sister

διακονος (diakonos) Koine = minister Latin = servant, minister or deacon
 
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