Plan for Salvation?

[Todd_Easton]

Ok so one lives a very pure life, and oh say one day instead of going to Mass on Sunday , they decdide they are going to the casino, have an accident on the way home, and die, so they go right to hell? am I getting this right?

Such an idea is not new. The LORD said it long ago through the prophet Ezechiel:
Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. (Ezechiel 33:13)

 

[teachccd]

Ok so one lives a very pure life, and oh say one day instead of going to Mass on Sunday , they decdide they are going to the casino, have an accident on the way home, and die, so they go right to hell? am I getting this right?

Probably not. If a person really internalizes the depths of the Mass and how we really enter into heaven during the liturgy, then they probably wouldn’t choose to go to the casino in place of the Mass. Most people who miss Mass never really knew Who and what they were missing. Mortal sin is a complete assent of the will to reject God. While this can happen, it is not as easy as many might think. You mention that someone led a “pure life” and then misses Mass. That is contradictory in that a “pure life” would have to honor God in the one place that He left for us to meet Him at Calvary. So the “pure life” is subjective and therefore not a consideration for us here.

Ultimately God is the judge of our souls. When we are judged it is an infinite judgment from an infinite loving and infinite merciful God. So if one were to reject God His love is so immense He would allow that person to remain separated from Him for all eternity. God will never pull someone kicking and screaming into heaven.

 

[Luvtosew]

**We are like God for ever Who writes this stuff. ** Have you never read Genesis, where man was created in the image and likeness of God? You can be “like God” without being the equivalent of God. We will be like God because we will no longer be subject to sin. We will be different from God in that we won’t be all powerful or omnipotent…

 

[Luvtosew]

**We are like God for ever Who writes this stuff. ** Have you never read Genesis, where man was created in the image and likeness of God? You can be “like God” without being the equivalent of God. We will be like God because we will no longer be subject to sin. We will be different from God in that we won’t be all powerful or omnipotent…

Isaiah 46:9
King James Version (KJV)

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

 

[paul_c]

**

We are like God for ever

Isaiah 46:9
King James Version (KJV)

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

This clearly isn’t about whether we can be like God. We are clearly made in the likeness of God:

Genesis 5:1: This is the record of the descendants of Adam. When God created human beings, he made them in the likeness of God; 2

Indeed, this is about your questioning the validity of the Catechism because you can’t accept the fact that life is a journey to or away from God and that your final position in life is the one that counts. In other words, you have a hard time accepting that if you fall from grace at the last minute of your life, having been faithful up to that point, you will be condemned to Hell.

This is honestly part of the journey. Almost everyone starts out this way. Consider this, you are putting your own intuition above the teaching of the church. Yet you must recognize that the church has the benefit of divine inspiration and the work of millions of theologians and priests over the last 2000 years that none of us can individually match. Once you internallize this point, you start to recognize that the first reaction when you come upon a church teaching that doesn’t make sense to you should be, " What am I missing?" , not “the Church is wrong on this, and I am right.” Remember, too, that if you already know it all, then no one can teach you anything. Only if you are open to new (name removed by moderator)ut, can you learn.

A few years ago, I came to this realization myself. I don’t remember how exactly, but up until that point, I like you thought that there were some things that the church taught that were wrong. But once I realized how arrogant and foolish I was to think I knew better than the Church, I started approaching the issues differently. When I encountered a problem, I studied the church position and I found that they always considered many things I had not and that when I had all the information it was Clear that the Church was right and I was wrong. As I learned more, the incidents where I was out of sync with the church became less and less frequent and now, I never seem to have such issues.

So why would the church teach that a whole life of purity can be lost with a single misstep? For the same reason, it teaches that an entire llife of sin can be rectified by a single final act of repentence. You see, life is a test to see whether you will choose heaven or hell but its also a journey toward that decision. If you have really chosen to love, you won’t fall back and go the casino. It wouldn’t even be a temptation for you. In the same way, if after years of going to the casino, you come to the realization that this is the wrong decision and start going to mass, you will be rewarded.

 

[Luvtosew]

I dont go to the casino, that was a if quest.

Lucifer wanted to be like God and look what happen to him. In my opinion the CCC has some strange wording in some places, and has many contradictory statements.

 

[Della]

I dont go to the casino, that was a if quest.

Lucifer wanted to be like God and look what happen to him. In my opinion the CCC has some strange wording in some places, and has many contradictory statements.

I say this with nothing but gentle kindness–there is nothing wrong with the CCC. What is wrong is you don’t want to believe a person can lose his salvation. But we can do that. Anyone can let their faith life slide until they no longer care/believe that they need to keep the Sabbath holy as God has commanded and which the Church has upheld by asking us to participate in Mass only one hour per week.

Using you example, a person would have to deliberately decide to chuck it all for a trip to the casino. It doesn’t mean that if he decided he needed a break from his routine, took a vacation and missed Mass while visiting a casino and dropped dead before he could get to confession he’d go to hell. God would know he was merely exhausted and wanted to get away from things for a while and got caught up in the betting. God is never unfair.

For a person to be culpable of mortal sin he must know that it’s a mortal sin, decide to commit it anyway and of his own free will. No active believer is going to do that for no reason. He’d either have lost his faith, in which case he doesn’t want to spend eternity with God or he’d have lost his capacity to make a cogent decision, in which case he wouldn’t be culpable.

 

[thenobes]

So, Salvation through “works of mercy” or the Sacraments? This is something which I have not come to understand fully; some say works toward your fellow man, others say ‘works’ as in Baptism and the Eucharist/sacraments.

The sacraments connect us with Jesus, who is Mercy itself.

peace
steve

 

[Luvtosew]

I say this with nothing but gentle kindness–there is nothing wrong with the CCC. What is wrong is you don’t want to believe a person can lose his salvation. But we can do that. Anyone can let their faith life slide until they no longer care/believe that they need to keep the Sabbath holy as God has commanded and which the Church has upheld by asking us to participate in Mass only one hour per week.

Using you example, a person would have to deliberately decide to chuck it all for a trip to the casino. It doesn’t mean that if he decided he needed a break from his routine, took a vacation and missed Mass while visiting a casino and dropped dead before he could get to confession he’d go to hell. God would know he was merely exhausted and wanted to get away from things for a while and got caught up in the betting. God is never unfair.

For a person to be culpable of mortal sin he must know that it’s a mortal sin, decide to commit it anyway and of his own free will. No active believer is going to do that for no reason. He’d either have lost his faith, in which case he doesn’t want to spend eternity with God or he’d have lost his capacity to make a cogent decision, in which case he wouldn’t be culpable.

Della,

I sure do believe a person can loose his salvation but I dont believe this statement

**Catholics regard the state of a person’s soul at the moment of his death as the determining factor as to whether he ultimately enjoys eternal life in heaven or suffers eternal damnation in hell. **which was given to me a few posts back.

and a previous poster said if a person dies with a mortal sin they go to hell.

in my reponse I made something up , going to the casion instead of Mass. it had nothing to do with me, I used a bad scenerio,

so lets say a person commits a mortal sin, anyone of the mortal sins, and doesn’t make it to confession before he dies unexpectantly, but now this person (not talking about me)
is a good person, not a sinner but one who has commited a mortal sin, (needless to say there are many people on this forum who talk about needing to go to confesssion as they have commited a mortal sin, but they are not living sinful lives)

but they die before they can, I do not believe that person goes directly to hell because he has not made it to confession as it appears the CC teaches according to some of the previous posters.

it really has nothing to do with Mass or the casion, but mortal sin and dying before confession.

 

[paul_c]

Della,

I sure do believe a person can loose his salvation but I dont believe this statement

**Catholics regard the state of a person’s soul at the moment of his death as the determining factor as to whether he ultimately enjoys eternal life in heaven or suffers eternal damnation in hell. **which was given to me a few posts back.

and a previous poster said if a person dies with a mortal sin they go to hell.

in my reponse I made something up , going to the casion instead of Mass. it had nothing to do with me, I used a bad scenerio,

so lets say a person commits a mortal sin, anyone of the mortal sins, and doesn’t make it to confession before he dies unexpectantly, but now this person (not talking about me)
is a good person, not a sinner but one who has commited a mortal sin, (needless to say there are many people on this forum who talk about needing to go to confesssion as they have commited a mortal sin, but they are not living sinful lives)

but they die before they can, I do not believe that person goes directly to hell because he has not made it to confession as it appears the CC teaches according to some of the previous posters.

it really has nothing to do with Mass or the casion, but mortal sin and dying before confession.

Whether you believe it or not, this is what the Church teaches. And if you don’t believe what the church teaches, what do you believe in? Its a slippery slope from there.

 

[Luvtosew]

obviously not everything the Church teaches.

I sure hope you don’t die on your way to confession.!

 

[paul_c]

obviously not everything the Church teaches.

I sure hope you don’t die on your way to confession.!

So why don’t you believe everything the Church teaches? Why do you think you know better than the Church? Do you have some special insight? Are you smarter than the Church fathers?

As for dying on the way to confession, that is only a problem if you have committed a mortal sin.

A mortal sin is

• of grave matter
• deliberately done
• with full knowledge that the sin is mortal.

If you are truly leading a sacramental life, you won’t commit mortal sin often. Venial sins, yes. Mortal sins, rarely

 

[jschutzm]

So why don’t you believe everything the Church teaches? Why do you think you know better than the Church? Do you have some special insight? Are you smarter than the Church fathers?

As for dying on the way to confession, that is only a problem if you have committed a mortal sin.

A mortal sin is

• of grave matter
• deliberately done
• with full knowledge that the sin is mortal.

If you are truly leading a sacramental life, you won’t commit mortal sin often. Venial sins, yes. Mortal sins, rarely

Building off of this… I’d answer such a scenario like this… (paraphrasing what I’ve heard on Catholic Answers LIVE radio show)

God has setup a process and a method for us to follow, to live a holy life and to gain salvation at the end of it. WE are bound by these rules and to this process. However, God is NOT. Again, WE are bound by God’s covenent with us… he is less so. He is only limited by his perfect sense of justice and righteousness (if you call that a limit)

We can not therefore, completely and totally rule out some extra ordinary process or put limits on God’s mercy and say that such a person in that situation will unequivocably go to hell, simply because they gravely sinned.

HOWEVER, and this is a HUGE “however” - We can not arrogantly assume he will forgive us, either.
We can not be so cavalier as to presume that we are forgiven no matter what and despite our deliberate disobedience.

So we ACT as if it entirely relies on us… but believe and hope, as if it entirely rests on God’s judgement.

Lastly, we shouldn’t forget about one of the most important Sacraments of the Church… that is “Last Rites” – a person who believes in God and undergoes last rites, which forgives sins… dies in a state of grace.
But I assume to make your scenario work… you’d presume that the person died before a Priest could administer last rites.

 

[Luvtosew]

**But I assume to make your scenario work… you’d presume that the person died before a Priest could administer last rites. **

Yes the person dies before confession or absolution by a Priest.

 

[paul_c]

**But I assume to make your scenario work… you’d presume that the person died before a Priest could administer last rites. **

Yes the person dies before confession or absolution by a Priest.

Well, the best plan is to do the following:

1. follow the churches teachings to the best of your ability:
   a) partake of the sacraments
   b) avoid mortal sin
   c) go to confession if you fall from grace
2. When you die and meet Jesus beg for mercy

A significantly less appealing plan is to assume the church is wrong and just do what you want.

 

[Luvtosew]

Ya know can’t agree more, but if one would die in a mortal sin condition, it does not automatically means he goes to hell like the above poster said. That is the issue here, he said the Churches teaches they do. thank you.

 

[paul_c]

Ya know can’t agree more, but if one would die in a mortal sin condition, it does not automatically means he goes to hell like the above poster said. That is the issue here, he said the Churches teaches they do. thank you.

I posted both notes. The churches teaches that you need to die in the state of grace to go to heaven. But it also teaches that God is not bound by his sacraments so it is possible that you could die outside the state of grace and still somehow be saved. But that’s not something you should bet your soul on. Better to do what the Church recommends. It comes directly from Jesus.

 

[Della]

Ya know can’t agree more, but if one would die in a mortal sin condition, it does not automatically means he goes to hell like the above poster said. That is the issue here, he said the Churches teaches they do. thank you.

The person would have to meet all three criteria for culpability–a most important word here–in order to face hellfire.

Firstly, he would have to know it is a mortal sin. Not everyone knows what constitutes a mortal sin these days when catechesis has been so poor. If more people did there would be less sin committed and happier people.

Secondly, he has to commit it intentionally. No one can be guilty for unintentionally commiting a sin. God knows our hearts and our intentions. Jesus was always very hard on those who had bad intentions, but quite merciful to those whose intentions were either good or who had been pushed into their situation in life, such as protitutes.

Thirdly, he has to commit it of his own free will. People usually do what they want to do, but not always. Sometimes a person can be forced into a situation against his will. God knows this and takes it into account.

The sin is still a sin, but whether or not a person is guilty of it upon his death is another issue. So, to say that someone who has committed mortal sin without confessing gets an automatic ticket to hell, is saying too much (or too little). The person would have to meet all three criteria in order to be guilty, so I agree that the bald statement is not quite right and not fair.

However, for those who do meet all three criteria, then the statement is true.