Plato and Democracy

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Charlemagne_II

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Anyone who has read Plato knows that he had a difficult time accepting the form of government called democracy. His hero Socrates, who valued the examined life above all, was put on trial and executed by the democratic government of Athens. Here are some choice quotes from Plato:

*Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.

Excess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.

Excess of liberty, whether it lies in state or individuals, seems only to pass into excess of slavery. *

Based on the present state of our culture, what would Plato’s opinion be of the future of American democracy? If he were here to visit and advise, what might he say based on what we know about his philosophy in general as applied to the conditions of our time?

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Plato would be fully aware of the Gospels.

Any takers? :whistle:
 
I would follow with Hippocrates Apostle’s impression that Plato would find our American culture possibly alienating, flawed, and in need of dire change, maybe even near collapse.

But, along with Apostle, I don’t think Plato would find our government to be democratic; he would (maybe after hearing a lecture from Aristotle on Politics, maybe not) consider the United States government to be a constitutional polity.

Plato would not, for many reasons (not being a merit-centered monarchy), I think, find the US ideal.

And thanks to the wonderful democratic government (in the modern sense of the term) that is the United States government, he would be welcome, as you would be, to share his criticism and negative opinion.

He would also, if he so disdained the nation, be welcome to move to Greece, or wherever he chose. I think, however, that he would make an absolutely wonderful Harvard Philosophy Professor.
 
Plato would find our American culture possibly alienating, flawed, and in need of dire change, maybe even near collapse.

Would there be something specific you think Plato would find highly “alienating, flawed, and in dire need of change”?
 
I ran across this in the Catechism, and I have to admit that I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Paragraph 2425:

***The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended. ***

Gee, I wonder if this philosophy would have saved us from our current global predicament? :rolleyes:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Plato would find our American culture possibly alienating, flawed, and in need of dire change, maybe even near collapse.

Would there be something specific you think Plato would find highly “alienating, flawed, and in dire need of change”?
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I’m not sure it would be one thing about our culture (and, as this is pure speculation, the fun part is none of my answers are going to be demonstrably wrong).

I would speculate that Plato would find our language, modes of expression, relationship with the sickly and elderly, alienating. He wouldn’t likely have any trouble with abortion, as he seemed to favor infanticide.

In terms of what he would find flawed, I would speculate the rampant homosexuality (though he would have had similar problems in his own time, presuming upon the passage in the Laws about the nature of homosexuality, at variance with his own culture), as well as the sophistry within American education.

He would, I suspect, find our views on property, ownership, our democratic process (not allowing for, or even encouraging, rule by a philosopher king, or even an intelligent person) in dire need of change.
 
*He would, I suspect, find our views on property, ownership, our democratic process (not allowing for, or even encouraging, rule by a philosopher king, or even an intelligent person) in dire need of change. *

What would Plato think about our offering up a Supreme Court in lieu of philosopher kings? They are, after all, enthroned for life.

Would he favor a strict constitutionalist court or an activist one?

In what way(s) can a Supreme Court be an effective antidote to the extremes of freedom that Plato worried about in a democracy? Or can it?
 
Although the differences are minor, we in America do not live in a pure Democracy. We live in a Constitutional Republic. In a pure, or Direct Democracy, as was the case in the Athens of Plato, every citizen is expected to vote on every issue that is brought forth to the Assembly, and could also speak if moved to do so. We elect people to do this for us in the U.S. Although a Democracy and a Republic are similar, and I may be accused of splitting hairs here, in a pure Democracy every single citizen is expected to vote on the various aspects of governance such as the enactment and validity of laws and policy. We in the U.S., and most of the West, elect people to represent us and do that stuff for us. Common citizens of a Republic are somewhat removed from the actual processes of governance (and thus can point the finger more easily), but should that lessen any of the culpability or societal guilt that common citizens in a Republic feel when their society isn’t perfect? And would this excuse please Plato?
 
KantianAgnostic said:
He would, I suspect, find our views on property, ownership, our democratic process (not allowing for, or even encouraging, rule by a philosopher king, or even an intelligent person) in dire need of change.
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I don’t mean to take away from the OP, but the principles of property, ownership, and the Western governmental processes (Republic or Democratic) were modeled most specifically on the philosophy of John Locke in The Second Treatise of Government, not Plato. I know this post is about Plato, but it is important to remember that although the Classical philosophers were revered by the Founding Fathers, and their ideals were definitely on their minds, they based their ideas of property, ownership, and government on Locke.
 
piltdown man

*Common citizens of a Republic are somewhat removed from the actual processes of governance (and thus can point the finger more easily), but should that lessen any of the culpability or societal guilt that common citizens in a Republic feel when their society isn’t perfect? And would this excuse please Plato? *

Your point is well taken. We distinguish ourselves from pure democracy by the form of a republican government. Yet I think Plato would say that our representatives are ever watchful of the public polls. When the public is receptive to a certain idea, the rulers offer them legislation for that idea. It is a way that each party bribes its constituents, by promising them (bribing them?) for their vote. When, for example, a minority want something the majority oppose, they will still be offered it as their “right,” in exchange for the solidarity of their vote. We see this in both parties. Republicans offer lower taxes. Democrats offer greater benefits paid for by taxes. It’s hard to escape the reality of government being “purchased” by this method. Not exactly the way Plato had in mind for selecting philosopher kings. The financial woes presently overcoming us seem directly related to this means of candidates bribing the public with the public’s own purse.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
What would Plato think about our offering up a Supreme Court in lieu of philosopher kings? They are, after all, enthroned for life.

Would he favor a strict constitutionalist court or an activist one?

In what way(s) can a Supreme Court be an effective antidote to the extremes of freedom that Plato worried about in a democracy? Or can it?*

Charlemagne, it has been quite the while that I last read Plato, or more specifically The Republic, but my understanding that his idea of a “Philosopher King” was just that, a king who would rule in a supremely intelligent manner. When you bring up the Supreme Court, I think, philosophically, you are dealing with a whole new can of worms because you are bringing up the theory of checks and balances, and the executive/legislative/judicial division of power - an idea which has its origins in Montesquieu I believe, though I may be wrong as I am neither a philosopher nor a king.

However, in speaking of antidotes to extremes of freedom, I believe if the Supreme Court sticks with its original purpose of ruling on the law and the Constitution and not legislating then Plato could be assumed to have accepted this as a mechanism to counter the extremism of which you speak.

To my mind (limited as it is in philosophy), no one philosopher analyzed democracy better than de Tocqueville and his Democracy in America. He realized what problems were inherent in democracy and he realized that RELIGION should and could serve as a proper counterbalance to the extremes to which democratic rule could go.

Not sure this helps, but gave it a try. Now back over to the brighter minds. 🙂
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Kyiv

Brighter minds? Not sure about that. Hang around for a while and give us a helping hand.

Thanks,
Charlie
 
*Is the Catholic Church run as a democracy or some other way? *

No way. The early Church consisted of popular elections of its leaders. But the Church eventually learned that the best model was the same model that Christ used, to select from those who seemed most adequate for the job. The only place where democracy is allowed is among those who elect the pope, and that is a vote of a limited number of equals for one supreme authority. By this means the Church has maintained its fidelity to the early teachings of the Church, rather than succumbing, as most Protestant sects have, to new doctrines promoted from the bottom up rather than from the top down. The spin-off Protestant sects are evidence of the fact that democracy in religion is fatal to any spirit of unity that Christ preached and Saint Paul affirmed after Him.

We are seeing something comparable to that happening even now in our democratic secular world as cultural warriors gear up to battle for the soul of America.
 
America is not a democracy, but a republic. A democracy is rule by majority; therefore, a man may be denied a fair trial and lynched immediately if the majority agrees to this. However, a republic is based upon unchangeable laws such as the right to a fair trial and free speech, etc. Therefore, Plato is not referring to our system, nor the system of most countries in the world.

Of course, there is a gradient between a republic and a democracy where one country may change rules that are set in stone, such as by amendment, but the key to avoiding the slavery of democracy is to make natural law permanent in the structure of the government. America does this nicely.
 
servornon

…*but the key to avoiding the slavery of democracy is to make natural law permanent in the structure of the government. *

How have we done that? Can you be specific with examples? How does Roe v Wade fit into what you say?
 
KantianAgnostic said:
He wouldn’t likely have any trouble with abortion, as he seemed to favor infanticide.
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This is actually debatable, although often claimed by people such as Popper. The accusation usually stems from the following passage from the Republic
Republic Part VII: 460c:
These officers will take the children of the better Guardians to a nursery and put them in the charge of nurses living in a seperate part of the city: the children of the inferior Guardians, and any defective offspring of the others, will be quietly and secretly disposed of.
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It sounds ominous, I agree. However, he is not necessarily hinting at infanticide here.
If you are familar with his other works then you may have spotted a connection between the phrase “quietly and secretly disposed of” from the Republic and what he terms “secret distribution” in the Timaeus.
The relevant passage reads:-

“You will remember too that we said that the children of the good were to be brought up, and the those of the bad distributed secretly among the rest of the community; and the Rulers were to keep an eye on the children as they grew up and promote any who deserved it, and degrade into the places of the promoted any in their own ranks who seemed unworthy of their position”

What Plato is in fact advocating here is a system of promoting and demoting children to different classes in society based on their abilities and dispostion.
The disposing is necessarily murder, but demoting what he calls the defective from the Guardian class to the the third class (ie. the general population).
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Anyone who has read Plato knows that he had a difficult time accepting the form of government called democracy.
Click to expand...
Indeed, he sees Democracy as the penultimate degraded system of society before Tyranny.
His hero Socrates, who valued the examined life above all, was put on trial and executed by the democratic government of Athens. Here are some choice quotes from Plato:
Click to expand...
*Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.
Click to expand...
Excess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.
Click to expand...
Excess of liberty, whether it lies in state or individuals, seems only to pass into excess of slavery. *
Click to expand...
Yes, this is because Plato uses different politea (lit. regimes) as analogies for the state of an individuals character. Democracy being rule by the masses is what he equates to a person being ruled by their appetities and desires. Although his fellow Athenians regarded this as the ultimate form of freedom, Plato regarded being ruled by one’s baser impulses as a form of slavery. It is to be enslaved to the worst parts of yourself.
Based on the present state of our culture, what would Plato’s opinion be of the future of American democracy? If he were here to visit and advise, what might he say based on what we know about his philosophy in general as applied to the conditions of our time?
Click to expand...
One of the first things that would strike him is the pervasive materialism. Plato was very much of the opinion that what people commonly regard as the important things in life - wealth, power, honour,worldy success, etc. are in fact of no consequence.
For Plato, the important thing in life was contemplating the life above this one and so in the process make yourself a better person, to transcend this world. His view is perhaps reflected best by the words of Plotinus - “Strive to bring back the god in yourselves to the Divine in the universe”

He would also take a dim view of those in power. The problem for him would be that the politicians and the elite are ultimately self-serving. And this is one of the problems he addresses in the Republic, where he says that the people who are best suited to be in charge are the very ones who would resist such power (ie. a philosopher qua philosopher).
 
*And this is one of the problems he addresses in the Republic, where he says that the people who are best suited to be in charge are the very ones who would resist such power (ie. a philosopher qua philosopher). *

And why is that? Because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely?

Was the SupremeCourt corrupted by the power over life and death with Roe v Wade?
 
*Modern democracy might be called an “elective aristocracy”. *

True. It seems those elected to office become in many cases instant millionaires.
 
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