Please explain what various philosophies teach about human nature

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grannymh

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Just curious. Need to get up to speed. Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
Just saw this, will update a few thinkers after lunch! I honestly was about to make a thread about this subject, but I will keep it in here now 😃

Will update today, my apologies. Just wanted to subscribe.
 
A very good friend of mine was acknowledged as a living exemplar of Vedanta, and was a mystery to the people who knew him as such because he was both a Westerner and came to the principles of that philosophy, notably non dualism, as a result of his own interior work. He was also regularly approached by many in several of the Christian faiths, including ours, and including very scholarly Jesuits. Someone renowned in the Church, whose name I am not at liberty to reveal, was a house guest of his for abut a week and found him to be man of profound insight. This person’s private secretary went so far as to say “We have found St. John Chrysostom!”

It was only later, despite many authors he shared with us of that stream, that I discovered that he could legitimately be called a proponent of Advaita, or non dualism. It seems that this philosophy, as lived and therefrom spoken by my friend, is not acceptable to the Church despite the obvious fact that many Catholics who sought his counsel came away with answers that dissolved their conundrums an theological impasses. From a point of theological tradition, I can understand that. From a practical standpoint I cannot. There is no denying efficacy, as far as I can tell.

But that is all prologue, and even what follows is a diversion, as the fundamental nature of his teachings derive from experience, not from dogma. And precious few would follow the mentally rigorous practice that would have one arrive at that experience, even though as far as I can tell, it is one congruent with something I have heard of as being practiced by some Saints and ok with the Church. Imo, some of the Greats of the Church for whom I have a particular affection, were adept, very adept, at this practice, at least from the stacks of “Lives of…” that I’ve read.

But in bald an meaningless intellectual terms, the fundmental premise of non dualism is that Consciousness as a, or more properly the, Principle of Life, is the root of awareness which is the “container” of ideas and thoughts, and indeed as far as being persons, the entirety of our perceptions of the Universe. Within Consciousness, all arises and dissipates, only Consciousness being Real. What we consider materially “real” is yet, despite appearances and experiences, transitory and therefor in the context of Consciousness fundamentally illusory. It is the discontinuity of the feeling and Knowledge of the dependency of awareness on Consciousness that constitutes human ignorance and the illusory condition of taking humans as persons to be discreet in essence, though certainly they are in form, though stemming altogether form the Source of Creation, each and every one. Experientially recognizing this dependency and primary pre-existing relationship with Source of God constitutes salvation, as well as the root of morality, as one would not harm their own self, which in Essence, or soul, that “other” actually is.

This system also accounts for Christology and psyche-ology in its root sense, in a rather unique and wonderful way which makes it as well congruent with passages found in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as the interior meaning of other traditions. That would include what at least one stream considers to be esoteric Christianity or Catholicism, (NOT Gnosticism). But there is no way I’m going to go into that on here, however congruent it may actually be with Catholicism, because it will not, to the casual or tyro thinker in this matter, seem even nearly so. But such is the world of words in the face of mystic realization.

I hope that adds something to your quest. If, surprisingly, it piques your interest, Grannymh, I will be glad to supply you with some pertinent titles, both ancient and contemporary. I look forward to reading what else appears as paradigms due to your very interesting question. Thanks for asking!
 
A very good friend of mine was acknowledged as a living exemplar of Vedanta, and was a mystery to the people who knew him as such because he was both a Westerner and came to the principles of that philosophy, notably non dualism, as a result of his own interior work. He was also regularly approached by many in several of the Christian faiths, including ours, and including very scholarly Jesuits. Someone renowned in the Church, whose name I am not at liberty to reveal, was a house guest of his for abut a week and found him to be man of profound insight. This person’s private secretary went so far as to say “We have found St. John Chrysostom!”

It was only later, despite many authors he shared with us of that stream, that I discovered that he could legitimately be called a proponent of Advaita, or non dualism. It seems that this philosophy, as lived and therefrom spoken by my friend, is not acceptable to the Church despite the obvious fact that many Catholics who sought his counsel came away with answers that dissolved their conundrums an theological impasses. From a point of theological tradition, I can understand that. From a practical standpoint I cannot. There is no denying efficacy, as far as I can tell.

But that is all prologue, and even what follows is a diversion, as the fundamental nature of his teachings derive from experience, not from dogma. And precious few would follow the mentally rigorous practice that would have one arrive at that experience, even though as far as I can tell, it is one congruent with something I have heard of as being practiced by some Saints and ok with the Church. Imo, some of the Greats of the Church for whom I have a particular affection, were adept, very adept, at this practice, at least from the stacks of “Lives of…” that I’ve read.

But in bald an meaningless intellectual terms, the fundmental premise of non dualism is that Consciousness as a, or more properly the, Principle of Life, is the root of awareness which is the “container” of ideas and thoughts, and indeed as far as being persons, the entirety of our perceptions of the Universe. Within Consciousness, all arises and dissipates, only Consciousness being Real. What we consider materially “real” is yet, despite appearances and experiences, transitory and therefor in the context of Consciousness fundamentally illusory. It is the discontinuity of the feeling and Knowledge of the dependency of awareness on Consciousness that constitutes human ignorance and the illusory condition of taking humans as persons to be discreet in essence, though certainly they are in form, though stemming altogether form the Source of Creation, each and every one. Experientially recognizing this dependency and primary pre-existing relationship with Source of God constitutes salvation, as well as the root of morality, as one would not harm their own self, which in Essence, or soul, that “other” actually is.

This system also accounts for Christology and psyche-ology in its root sense, in a rather unique and wonderful way which makes it as well congruent with passages found in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as the interior meaning of other traditions. That would include what at least one stream considers to be esoteric Christianity or Catholicism, (NOT Gnosticism). But there is no way I’m going to go into that on here, however congruent it may actually be with Catholicism, because it will not, to the casual or tyro thinker in this matter, seem even nearly so. But such is the world of words in the face of mystic realization.

I hope that adds something to your quest. If, surprisingly, it piques your interest, Grannymh, I will be glad to supply you with some pertinent titles, both ancient and contemporary. I look forward to reading what else appears as paradigms due to your very interesting question. Thanks for asking!
I briefly checked the website of the Vedanta Society of Southern California. My first impression was that Vedanta held that humans have a divine nature but not in the way which western Christianity views divinity.

There seems to be a two way street in that our perception of God influences the perception of ourselves and that the perception of our human nature influences how we view God.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17
 
I briefly checked the website of the Vedanta Society of Southern California. My first impression was that Vedanta held that humans have a divine nature but not in the way which western Christianity views divinity.

There seems to be a two way street in that our perception of God influences the perception of ourselves and that the perception of our human nature influences how we view God.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17
Yes, I completely concur with the passage from John, as would my friend, who often quoted from his work and the Bible in general. And yet he might have a different sense as to what that exactly means. Pursuant to that, having looked at that site you refer to, it is, especially because of its Eastern orientation, (heh,heh) not my first recommendation by any means, as useful material, though I surely admire your curiosity. In fact, my experience is that nearly anything that can be said in intellectual terms about this system is at best misleading without some practical grounding due to the very experiential nature of this way of understanding. I have some differences even with the Catholic Encyclopedia’s delineation of it. And I have witnessed many folks who took the exact opposite meaning from from such a site as is in fact meant. It is for this reason that I rarely recommend any pursuit of this system even as an intellectual curiosity. That is not the realm it operates in. Better ignorance than deception, however innocent.

For what it is worth, the non dualist philosophers of my acquaintance incorporate both what are technically known as ascending and descending ways of understanding, worship, devotion, and practice. Notably, most Eastern religions are primarily “descending” by this categorization, including the site you visited, and Catholicism is adamantly in the “ascending” category. Imo, at least for the perspective that yields results above the ordinary, both are necessary. The treatment of this idea in Ken Wilber’s “A Brief History of Everything” as presented in the four quadrants diagrams and the ideas graphed concerning levels of spiritual maturity are very useful, more so than in other similar works. Korzybski’s structural differential is a useful tool in this regard as well, but is impaired by a deficiency I won’t go into here.

Frankly, it took me a deal of work and introspection to perceive the actual underlying congruences, so such an endeavor is not one I recommend lightly. In fact my inquiry took place out of necessity far more than any intellectual curiosity.

I believe that for most practical purposes a person’s birth religion is quite sufficient for salvation, and it is more assuring of that result to sponsor sincerity than it is to go grinding gears to find hidden, even if truer, more expansive, meaning in another or one’s own faith. The impetus of Love that caused the passage you quote is far more broad and deep than we can imagine. If you peruse any of my postings on these pages you might find some of them bordering on cynical. But that is actually aimed at the narrowness of perception usual to habitual faith as distinct from the sort of active mining you are doing in the veins of meaning.

So it was in that wise of hoping that I could give you a summary of my friend’s views, those views having a curiously universal application through time and space. He was unique in the depth of his considerations, as all those sages modern and ancient tend to be. They are as well often not understood or taken seriously save by a few who have similar depth of vision to see beyond the mere form of things.

Among those is the perception of God that to the Western religious mind borders on blasphemous due to the nature of English, it’s grammar, and the pivotal nature of so many of its words. I’m engaged elsewhere in a discussion about the distinction between Consciousness and awareness. People find it very difficult to get their brain around some very fundamental differences and how they are yet connected. Given that, you might see why I would be very reluctant to say things on here about other understandings of the Nature of Divinity, even as an exercise in understanding another philosophy as we are doing here.

My suggestion is that if you wish to converse further about this, that we do it my PM. I had good access to my friend’s library and attended numbers of his lectures and was found competent by him to at least have some facility with his ideas, or the ideas surrounding non dualism. So while I would not recommend anything in terms of true or not, particularly in terms of our faith, I would feel competent in clarifying some ideas if you so wish. Otherwise it might be better to simply know that such as thing as non dualism exists by name and leave it at that.
 
Socrates gives us a description of human nature as something that is independent from humans, existing outside of us. This means that humans live for a final cause, the “Good” Life. Plato’s student, Aristotle, wrote in similar fashion. Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates give us ideas that humans have two parts to our souls, and the best way to guide our souls to achieve this “Good” Life is through reasoning and rationality.

After the time of Jesus, we will see a few writers, like Saint Augustine, talk about original sin with human nature. This view holds that we feel from the natural order of creation, and that * human nature is self-centered *, which brings along pride and self-centeredness.

Once we get into the later Middle Ages and Early Modern periods, we see the concept of human nature change drastically. Many writers look back in history to a time before civilizations, but some take a more scientific approach. My favorite writer during this is Machiavelli. His concept of human nature is that Men are by nature envious and wicked. Men act either out of necessity or free choice, and that people are much quicker to critize than praise for what others have done. As a result of this human nature, we are told that men can only secure themselves by building up power. This will be the starting point for thinkers such as Descartes, Thomas Hobbes, and John Locke. Their approach to human nature is that we are all born as clean slates, and our knowledge and actions comes from experience and perception. Thus we will see the argument of Nature vs Nurture.

Basically, if you know your timeline and writers, you will see a shift from a fixed human nature to Nature vs Nurture. Personally, I believe this change comes from the shift in political philosophy, which follows in similar change on the same timeline. When we see fixed human nature, we see political philosophy that is heavily Communitism; and when we see Nature vs Nurture, the political philsophy is much more Individualism.
 
Why is it
that with all the Catholics on CAF
not one has described what Catholic philosophy actually teaches about human nature?
 
Why is it
that with all the Catholics on CAF
not one has described what Catholic philosophy actually teaches about human nature?
Could it be that there isn’t one philosophy behind Church teaching?

I’ve started reading “Male and Female He Made Them”. The introduction is by the translator/editor. In it he provides a explanation of the various philosophies that formed JPII’s Theology of the Body. What has struck me so far is that despite huge gaps between several philosophers’ final conclusions, there are many points of agreement on premises and intermediate conclusion. Two philosophers that I recall are Kant and Sheller[sp?].
 
Why is it
that with all the Catholics on CAF
not one has described what Catholic philosophy actually teaches about human nature?
I can only answer for myself, Grannymh:

The things that I’ve seen you post reveal an above average intelligence, at least. Your stated religion is Catholic. It would appear to follow that you know our faith’s philosophy on human nature, and it would be redundant to repeat that back to you, And though it would seem slightly odd that someone like you would need to “get up to speed,” the word “curious” seemed to illicit desire for information about non Catholic paradigms. Not taking you as being coy, and having some experiential access to another paradigm, I took your question at face value and presented my statement. So I’m a bit surprised at your post #7 on here.
 
I can only answer for myself, Grannymh:

It would appear to follow that you know our faith’s philosophy on human nature, and it would be redundant to repeat that back to you, And though it would seem slightly odd that someone like you would need to “get up to speed,” the word “curious” seemed to illicit desire for information about non Catholic paradigms. Not taking you as being coy, and having some experiential access to another paradigm, I took your question at face value and presented my statement. So I’m a bit surprised at your post #7 on here.
Regarding getting up to speed. My philosophy professor’s goal was to demonstrate a straight line from Descartes to Communism, which he did and I passed the course. However, I spaced out the philosophers close to Communism because I figured that anyone who had trouble with existence wasn’t worth paying attention to. My error.

Curious is right on target. It is always important to understand others’ views. That does not mean that one has to believe or accept everything one learns.

As for Catholic philosophy regarding human nature, one of the first things I noticed on CAF was that not all Catholics hold the same philosophy. I am using “philosophy” in the broadest sense.

Off line, due the current ban on evolution discussion in a number of CAF forums, I am researching the origin of human nature. While many on CAF claim that science is separate from religion, in reality, science is not separate from philosophy as philosophy can be defined as “2. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.” & “5. a set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity ; an underlying theory;” American Heritage College Dictionary

Therefore: What do the various philosophies, including Catholic ones, teach about human nature?

Blessings*,*
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
Could it be that there isn’t one philosophy behind Church teaching?

I’ve started reading “Male and Female He Made Them”. The introduction is by the translator/editor. In it he provides a explanation of the various philosophies that formed JPII’s Theology of the Body. What has struck me so far is that despite huge gaps between several philosophers’ final conclusions, there are many points of agreement on premises and intermediate conclusion. Two philosophers that I recall are Kant and Sheller[sp?].
To answer the first question – yes and no. The ball is now in your court.🙂

As I mentioned in post 10, being the not-so-smart university student, I am missing a lot of philosophical details. However, as I look at Church history analytically, I find that Church Councils did consider various philosophies going back to Aristotle. Consider the broad definitions in post 10, plus “1b. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.” & “1c. a system of thought based on or involving such investigation.” American Heritage College Dictionary. In my humble opinion, philosophy became a tool in making Divine Revelation explicit. The Council of Trent is an example as it searched the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas under the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

Also, it seems reasonable that among philosophers, there would be points of agreement on premises and intermediate conclusion since presumably they would be dealing with the same reality. Huge gaps between final conclusions could come from natural limitations of the human intellect. I am interested in learning more.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
OK, Grannymh, I get that. FYI, I just flashed over to newadvent.org/cathen/10226a.htm#section1 and found what from a very quick scan seems to be possibly useful in terms of your inquiry. You will have to judge for yourself.

Surprisingly, the section under Hindu philosophy in the history section is, due to its simplicity I think, in line with what I have gleaned form my friend. Perhaps this has to do with it restriction to essence as distinct from later permutations and complications even within that stream. Sorry if I seemed reticent in my explanation, but my experience has been that even simple statement such as are found there which I’ve put forth in what seemed appropriate circumstances illicited wildly divergent reactions, some very hostile, and few useful or engaging responses. You might therefore understand my shyness in the matter.
 
http://payingattentiontothesky.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/genesis.jpg?w=450&h=424
Why is it that with all the Catholics on CAF
not one has described what Catholic philosophy actually teaches about human nature?
John Sachs, in his little book called “The Christian Vision of Humanity” looks at Genesis where we see

  1. *] Dominion over the rest of creation,
    *] Creation of male and female and
    *] The command to be fruitful and multiply

    .
    and shows how Christians reason what it really means to be “the image of God.” Our lives do make sense, that our world is created in love and for love and that all men and women are destined to find final healing and fulfillment together by sharing in God’s own divine life.

    A reading selection here, if you wish to explore more.

    dj
 
Experientially recognizing this dependency and primary pre-existing relationship with Source of God constitutes salvation, as well as the root of morality, as one would not harm their own self, which in Essence, or soul, that “other” actually is.
Christians react to any concept that sounds as if it’s relating man to God Himself-as if, ultimately, there’s nothing really higher than or superior to man, at least in consideration of mans’ essence, whatever that may be. And yet I’m not sure how different the two systems are in fact.

We depend on God, “In Him we live, and move, and have our being”. But this same verse also depicts an intimate relationship of God with His creation, as if we’re expressions/reflections/extensions of Him, even if corrupted somehow by ignorance or “falleness”. IMO, we’re placed here on earth to gain knowledge/wisdom, the wisdom ultimately to recognize our dependency on Him, which perhaps means to stop “arguing with Reality” as I’ve heard it put.

Either way, the idea that we’re intimately related to God, as a part of Him in some sense and, for that reason perhaps, an object of His love, seems truer to me than merely conceiving man as separate, created biological machines or the totally depraved filthy worms He’d rather squash than bother saving as some religions seem to depict, even though there is an aspect of truth reflected there, going by the way we often treat ourselves and each other.

Anyway, for my money, what distinguishes man is his ability to love, with all else that that ability-or potential- implies about him. Nothing else seems to me to have a higher value than that, or would be capable of making any of this existence ultimately worth existing in.
 
John Sachs, in his little book called “The Christian Vision of Humanity” looks at Genesis where we see

  1. *]Dominion over the rest of creation,
    *]Creation of male and female and
    *]The command to be fruitful and multiply

    .
    and shows how Christians reason what it really means to be “the image of God.” Our lives do make sense, that our world is created in love and for love and that all men and women are destined to find final healing and fulfillment together by sharing in God’s own divine life.

    A reading selection here, if you wish to explore more.

    dj

  1. Interesting that this thread should surface at this point in time. Off line, I am completing my part in a defense of the Catholic doctrine of monogenism.

    I now believe that Catholicism, itself, as in its *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *paragraphs 355 - 421 has the best basic understanding of human nature. The footnotes cite a multitude of sources.

    It appears to me that the key to understanding human nature is the recognition that human nature, in itself, unites both the material and spiritual worlds. This is not two natures united (Cartesian dualism) but rather their union forms a single nature.

    Blessings,
    granny

    All persons are sacred because each is an unique creation by a loving Creator.
 
Christians react to any concept that sounds as if it’s relating man to God Himself-as if, ultimately, there’s nothing really higher than or superior to man, at least in consideration of mans’ essence, whatever that may be. And yet I’m not sure how different the two systems are in fact.

We depend on God, “In Him we live, and move, and have our being”. But this same verse also depicts an intimate relationship of God with His creation, as if we’re expressions/reflections/extensions of Him, even if corrupted somehow by ignorance or “falleness”. IMO, we’re placed here on earth to gain knowledge/wisdom, the wisdom ultimately to recognize our dependency on Him, which perhaps means to stop “arguing with Reality” as I’ve heard it put.

Either way, the idea that we’re intimately related to God, as a part of Him in some sense and, for that reason perhaps, an object of His love, seems truer to me than merely conceiving man as separate, created biological machines or the totally depraved filthy worms He’d rather squash than bother saving as some religions seem to depict, even though there is an aspect of truth reflected there, going by the way we often treat ourselves and each other.

Anyway, for my money, what distinguishes man is his ability to love, with all else that that ability-or potential- implies about him. Nothing else seems to me to have a higher value than that, or would be capable of making any of this existence ultimately worth existing in.
The basic reason for our presence on earth is to ultimately share, for eternity, in God’s own life through knowledge and love.

The reality of our human nature consists of the marvelous union of spirit and matter, spiritual soul and material anatomy. At the same time that God sustains and upholds our existence, we, as created individuals separate yet dependent on our Creator, can choose to be in His friendship or not. This indeed is a great mystery which Catholicism accepts in respect to the infinitely greater reality of a transcendent, Pure Spirit, without restrictions.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
This indeed is a great mystery which Catholicism accepts in respect to the infinitely greater reality of a transcendent, Pure Spirit, without restrictions.
Hi, grannymh. Sounded clear until this last sentence. Care to expound a bit on it?
 
Hi, grannymh. Sounded clear until this last sentence. Care to expound a bit on it?
Good question, thank you. I could have left that sentence off.

It so happens that one of my favorite descriptions of God is that He is a transcendent Pure Spirit without restrictions and I have used it often on CAF. I especially like to use it in regard to the marvelous union of spirit and matter. As we know, the spiritual soul is being lost due to one of the many popular theories regarding human origin.

Catholics need to understand that it is o.k. to credit God when it comes to our spiritual soul because He is an infinitely greater reality than our physical/material earth.

Side note: Speaking of philosophies. Recently, I have been learning a little of the panentheism language. This is difficult as it uses poetic-like terminology which sounds authentic until one searches out the deeper meanings. It is hard for me to discuss it since my knowledge is so limited.
 
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