Please help with Biblical arguments against this!

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Lisa4Catholics

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Who Would Jesus Marry?

http://www.cathedralofhope.com/images/2005/1marriage2.jpgThe Bible never addresses the issue of homosexual love, but has several examples of same-sex love. David’s love for Jonathan was said to exceed his love for women. (2 Samuel 1:26 and 1 Samuel 20:17) Ruth’s relationship with Naomi is certainly an example of a deep, bonding love. The Bible does value love between persons of the same sex.

Episcopal priest, Dr. Tom Homer, has written that the Gospels imply that Jesus’ attitude toward lesbians and gays would not have been hostile. In the story of Jesus healing the Centurion’s servant, (Mathew 8:5-13), the word used for the servant is pais which in the Greek culture referred to a younger lover of an older more powerful or educated man. Clearly the story demonstrates an unusually intense love between people of the same sex, and Jesus’ response is wholly positive.

Since the time of Ruth & Naomi and of David & Jonathan, people of the same gender have made sacred covenants of love. This church has been marrying same-gender couples for over three decades. We have married hundreds of couples; yet, civilization has not come to an end, and the institution of marriage has not been harmed.
As alot of you know I go to Hannity forums as well and one poster pushes this agenda:nope: And has the link to her church of her sig, What in the world??? I have never seen these takes on scripture:eek: Any assistance would be appreciated.Mods if this is too much take it off and pm me with any help that can be offered.:eek:
 
Any takers??? I have never seen scripture twisted in this manner and am still learning apologetics and NEVER have I seen something this off the wall to refute:eek: Come on you guys:nope: How do you start with this? How do they come to this erroneous conclusion???:eek:
 
6 “But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female. 7 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother [and be joined to his wife,] 8 and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, man must not separate.” Mark 10:6-9

Also in Genesis 1:27 “God reated man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.” Then in the next verse God blesses them saying to them “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.” It takes both male and female to be in the image of God, and together they can make a unique new life. A life that is of both parents.

Well thats a start.

While I don’t think Jesus would act hostile towards gays and lesbians, if he would permit it that would be another thing. The woman who was going to be stoned for adultery, I don’t recall Jesus saying go out and do it again. He said to sin no more.
 
God HATES it when people choose to live a homosexual lifestyle. Do you remember Sodom? He burned the village to a pulp because of that sin. It is one of the foremost passages that speaks about homosexuality and God openly condemns it by destroying the people committing the act.
 
Isn’t it somewhere in Leviticus that says a man shall not lie with another man like he would with a woman? I’m not sure which verse, but I’m pretty sure it’s there. It seems to cleary mean sex.
 
You cannot argue with a group of people like this. They have taken the sin and conformed a (false) Word of God to it instead of conforming themselves to the (true) Word of God.

I just recently had a discussion with a person who had IVF to conceiver her children. She is Baptist, married to a (former) Catholic. He was Catholic when the got married, and she was looking in to converting. However, when they tried to conceive and found out there were issues, and decided they wanted IVF, they learned of the Catholic Church teaching regarding IVF. They wanted IVF… Church says “no IVF”… their solution-- go become Baptist b/c the Baptist Church says IVF is OK.

Honestly, people will go to extreme lengths to rationalized what they want instead of conforming themselves to God. I don’t think you will get through no matter HOW many verses in the bible you find. Plus, they reject the Authority of the CC so I’d say shake the dust off your sandals…

That’s just me.
 
Leviticus 20:13
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.”

Romans 1:26-7
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”

1 Timothy 1:9-10
“understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Pretty clear I’d say.
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1ke:
Honestly, people will go to extreme lengths to rationalized what they want instead of conforming themselves to God. I don’t think you will get through no matter HOW many verses in the bible you find. Plus, they reject the Authority of the CC so I’d say shake the dust off your sandals…
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I agree with 1ke. You won’t be able to convince them with words, pray for them.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
…In the story of Jesus healing the Centurion’s servant, (Mathew 8:5-13), the word used for the servant is pais which in the Greek culture referred to a younger lover of an older more powerful or educated man…
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Matthew was written in Aramaic. Even if the Centurion had spoken to Jesus in Greek the word written would have been Aramaic. It was later translated into Greek.

It’s the same problem (in the same Gospel) as “Peter” and “rock” being translated as the Greek “petra” and “petros” when in the language Jesus spoke and in the language the book was written the word would have been “cephas” both times.
 
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the_nuge:
Matthew was written in Aramaic. Even if the Centurion had spoken to Jesus in Greek the word written would have been Aramaic. It was later translated into Greek.

It’s the same problem (in the same Gospel) as “Peter” and “rock” being translated as the Greek “petra” and “petros” when in the language Jesus spoke and in the language the book was written the word would have been “cephas” both times.
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Thankyou for your responses.I may just pray and shake the dust off my feet!:nope: When looking through that link there was inclusive language, a class called the gospel of HARRY POTTER:nope: And many more things that are so distorted that I would not know where to begin.:nope:
 
Id stay well away from that site. Very liberal, very dodgy. Twists things completely.
 
Hi Lisa, even thou people of the same sex made covenants with each other in scripture – they were not marriage covenants that included the marriage bed.

Two books well worth the read are,

The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics
by Robert A. J. Gagnon

Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views
by Robert A. J. Gagnon, Dan O. Via

robgagnon.net/

Robert Gagnon has been having a ongoing debate, discussion with liberals who endorse homosexuality.
 
The Bible never addresses the issue of homosexual love, but has several examples of same-sex love. David’s love for Jonathan was said to exceed his love for women. (2 Samuel 1:26 and 1 Samuel 20:17) Ruth’s relationship with Naomi is certainly an example of a deep, bonding love. The Bible does value love between persons of the same sex.
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Uh…the Bible does address homsexuality and it condemns it. If I could perhaps give you some pointers on talking to the non-Christians or non-religeous on homosexuality, the best argument to start with against their position is the natural law argument. If they bring up the Bible then you can point to 1 Cor, 1 Tim, Leviticus, and Romans chap 1 (which by the way is a chapter that talks about the natural law of God in creation, but that’s another subject) 🙂 Again if they bring up the Scriptures and say something like “Jesus never condemned homosexuality” then respond like this:

Jesus never addressed it specifically, however, the Bible is one cohesive whole of infallible and inspired truth and Jesus is GOD (John 1:1-15, John 8:58) so He wrote the Bible! And the word inspired in Greek (theopneustos 2 Tim 3:16) ) means God breathed therefore, Jesus wrote the Bible and AGREES with EVERY word of the Bible, i.e. 1 Cor 6, Rom 2!

Now if the Bible isn’t an issue I always start with the natural law argument and you may want to consider this; that this argument refutes homosexuality and contraception and you don’t even have to use the word God unless it is an issue (although it will eventually, I’m sure). You say that the natural order of things or the natural way that things work (which is another way of saying how God created everything to work) shows that homosexuality over-time simply ceases society to replenish itself with another generation which ends up in self-annihilation.

A caveat, there are a number of responses that people make which I don’t have time to post, but this one just covers the basic one 🙂

You would start with the premise (which is a fullproof one) that the primary reason for people to have relations together is procreation. Why? Because if we can’t and don’t replenish enough persons in the world then the world will eventually in-time cease to exist; this also could and would happen with abortion and contraception. Certainly there are secondary and turtiary reasons for sexual relations i.e. it pleasure, the unitive aspect, but the primary reason is procreation.

And since it is impossible for a man and a man to procreate as well as a woman and a woman (sterile sex), then if a certain percentage of people acted this way we wouldn’t have another generation and the world would be gone.
Episcopal priest, Dr. Tom Homer, has written that the Gospels imply that Jesus’ attitude toward lesbians and gays would not have been hostile. In the story of Jesus healing the Centurion’s servant, (Mathew 8:5-13), the word used for the servant is pais which in the Greek culture referred to a younger lover of an older more powerful or educated man. Clearly the story demonstrates an unusually intense love between people of the same sex, and Jesus’ response is wholly positive.
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Uh…the argument this “priest” uses is very flawed since I looked up the word “pais” in my Strongs Greek concordance (a Protestant concordance, I’ve had for years since I’m a convert) and on page 72 this is what it says:

“pais, paheece, perh. from 3817; a boy (as often beaten with impurity), or (by anal. [analogy]) a girl, and (gen.) a child; spec. a slave or servant (espec. a minister to a king; and by eminence to God):—child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.”

So, this Episcopal priest is using the take whatever possible meaning out of the Greek word I can in order to best support my position argument and then making it sound as though he’s erudite and correct. In Mt 8:5-13 it could mean a number of differing people and sexual partners isn’t one of them.
And since as I’ve said prior that the Jesus is God and He wrote the Bible how can He contradict Himself sinc the Bible elsewhere condemns the practice?
Even though I only know very little Greek, the one thing that I’ve learned is that Greek words as in any language can and often have a multitplicity of meanings but the context of the passage is what can usually prove what the word is refering to. As far as
that is concerned it doesn’t refer to the centurion having a sexual partner and couldn’t.

These people are confused. Say a prayer for them for they need to abide by Romans 6:23.
 
Bishopite said:
“pais, paheece, perh. from 3817; a boy (as often beaten with impurity), or (by anal. [analogy]) a girl, and (gen.) a child; spec. a slave or servant (espec. a minister to a king; and by eminence to God):—child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.”
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q.v. the LSJ: like most terms, it is quite broad, but the root meaning is a person who descends from or belongs to another, i.e., a child or a servant.
…the one thing that I’ve learned is that Greek words as in any language can and often have a multiplicity of meanings but the context of the passage is what can usually prove what the word is refering to. As far as that is concerned it doesn’t refer to the centurion having a sexual partner
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Agreed: there is no evidence in the text to support the contention that this word, which does not usually mean ‘lover’, happens to have that meaning in this location. Considering the fact that Greek had plenty of other words which could have been used to specify that he meant a lover, the reading of this usage as having that meaning is untenable.
 
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the_nuge:
Matthew was written in Aramaic. Even if the Centurion had spoken to Jesus in Greek the word written would have been Aramaic. It was later translated into Greek.
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Papias claimed that Matthew was written in Aramaic, and a number of later writers repeated what he said. However, no actual evidence of the text itself has ever appeared, which is what caused Erasmus to doubt that it had ever existed.
 
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Mystophilus:
Papias claimed that Matthew was written in Aramaic, and a number of later writers repeated what he said. However, no actual evidence of the text itself has ever appeared, which is what caused Erasmus to doubt that it had ever existed.
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Right. Papias did claim that in his writing. Primary source evidence isn’t a problem and couldn’t be within Christianity since we don’t posess the actual “inspired” Greek gospel scrolls written by the Apostles either. We rely much on the early Church which handed down copies of Scripture through the Church to the next generation.
 
I’m posting the quote I have from Papias because I wanted to put it in my last post but I couldn’t find it but now I did 🙂

Papias (a disciple of the Apostle John) writes and says…

“Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language (i.e. Aramaic), and each one interpreted them as best as he could.” (Papias, Fragment in Eusebius H.E., Book lll, c. 130 A.D.)

Again, it doesn’t prove that Matthew was written in Aramaic but it does give some evidence that it may have been.
 
Are they really mentioning Ruth and Naomi in trying to justify same-sex “marriage”?

:banghead:
 
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asteroid:
Are they really mentioning Ruth and Naomi in trying to justify same-sex “marriage”?

:banghead:
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YES! Among other things in that site including the “pastor” giving a talk called the GOSPEL according to Harry Potter!:banghead: :mad:
 
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