Please pray for this woman.

[JamesG]

There is a woman I know that spent her years in university writing essays against the church. Her understanding of the church is full of error and anti-catholic teaching.

She talks about how the church helped out nazis and assisted in the holocaust. I’m not sure where she got that from but it is very hurtful. Apparently it was part of a very long essay she wrote. When I try to point her to a catholic source that refutes it as nonsense and she doesn’t want to read it. She said that it isn’t a good idea to read from a catholic perspective.

I tried my best to tell her that her words of full of anti catholic teachings. I invited her to discuss her “facts” about the church on these forums but she has refused.

It really troubles me and hurts me to hear people say things about the church that are not based on facts or even a basic understanding of the teachings of the church. It makes me feel so misunderstood. All they ever hear is “It is wrong to do this or wrong to do that”. They never reflect on the teachings of the church and put them into context with the framework of our faith. They only judge us from a distance and then they have the nerve to accuse us of being judgmental!

Anyway. I can only hope that God will enter her life and guide her toward the faith.

I’ve tried to encourage her to see God in her life and I think she may have actually started to pray a few times. I don’t think she used to do that. Anyway, she isn’t catholic so I don’t know what do to.

Please pray for her.

Anyway. Where can I find counter arguments and research information on this issue about the church and the Nazis. I’m sure some of the more experienced and knowledgably catholic defenders have heard all these angles. I don’t even know the arguments that well to start. I will send it too her bit by bit so she reads it.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

JamesG:

She said that it isn’t a good idea to read from a catholic perspective.

Yea because when coming to a conclusion on something it is never prudent to get both sides Im sorry did you say this women was in college because basic research skills are taught in atleast JR High.

Have you tried looking at what Catholic Answers has on this subject? I have never looked into it yet so I cant say if they have information on this.

Good luck, God Bless and never let another undermine your faith

 

[JamesG]

Roman_Catholic:

Yea because when coming to a conclusion on something it is never prudent to get both sides Im sorry did you say this women was in college because basic research skills are taught in atleast JR High.

Have you tried looking at what Catholic Answers has on this subject? I have never looked into it yet so I cant say if they have information on this.

Good luck, God Bless and never let another undermine your faith

I sent her the article HOW PIUS XII PROTECTED JEWS via email

I can only hope that she will respond with her “facts”

I will keep this site updated with her responses.

Thanks hopefully she will reply and I will need all your help.

 

[Ruthmary]

If you do a Google search on Pius XII and the holocaust you will find more information than you can read. I recommend looking at the website of Margherita Marchione. She’s a nun who is spending her life defending this great pope.
piusxiipope.info/sister.htm

The Catholic League also has a good article:
catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm
Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a “righteous gentile,” who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII “was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.”

If the woman will listen to only Jewish sources, there are plenty. At Wikipedia, there’s a long article on Pius XII.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII

The following is part of a list from the Wikipedia article of quotes from various prominent Jewish leaders praising Pius XII:

**“No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII.” **
---- Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America in the New York Times, March, 1940.

"Pius XII took an unequivocal stand against the oppression of Jews throughout Europe."
---- The 1943-1944 American Jewish Yearbook

"The repeated interventions of the Holy Father on behalf of Jewish Communities in Europe has evoked the profoundest sentiments of appreciation and gratitude from Jews throughout the world."
---- Rabbi Maurice Perlzweig, Political director of the World Jewish Congress. Written February 18, 1944 in a letter to Msgr. Amleto Cicognani, the apostolic delegate in Washington, D.C.

"In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See…was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews…. The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."
— Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania note to Monsignor Andrea Cassulo, Papal Nuncio to Romania, April 7, 1944

"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
— Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of the British Mandate of Palestine, March 1945.

Eugenio Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII converted to Catholicism because of what he saw in Pius XII, and wrote a book Before the Dawn (reissued in 1997 as Why I Became a Catholic)

The latest book written in defense of Pius XII is by a Jewish Rabbi is in bookstores now: **The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis **by David G. Dalin

I will be looking forward to learning if you have been able to persuade this woman. Keep us posted.

Blessings,
Ruth

 

[JamesG]

Ruth,

Thank you so much for these articles and links.

I have had a conversation with this woman about most of what you have posted.

All that happens is that she gets mad at me “for forcing my views on her.” Every time I try to reason and prove her wrong she acuses me of this.

Some people don’t want to listen to the truth. It doesn’t mater how many facts you offer or how many good points you have. It doesn’t mater how nice you are to them.

They just want to live in their own world that is based on lies and emotion.

If you want to understand how this woman seems to think take a look at the post under “the culture of death” that I made.
the thread is called.
"she said “men don’t have any right to talk about abortion!”

I posted an msn conversation I had with her. She started to use the same defence when she was losing her argument. “I don’t have the right to force my views on others.”

Even if she is totally wrong she doesn’t want to be shown the truth. It is based on ignorance and not rational thinking.

This is why I ask for prayer .

 

[ABsitively]

It must be very frustrating trying to talk to this woman and I commend you for making the effort. I have found that in my own personal experience, people that have such huge problems with the Church are trying to justify events that have occured in their own lives. Perhaps whatever it is that is troubling her is too fresh to think about it rationally.

 

[JamesG]

I would also like to ad that she continued to say that the pope should of done more.

I asked her what should he have done?

She said that he should of said more and suggested that there should of been a dead pope over it.

I asked her what purpose that would of served and I told her of all the jewish people that would never of been saved.

She said that it shouldn’t mater to me because my faith doesn’t require a “church organization”. She said it wouldn’t of mattered.

I then started to realize that her problem is with the church and its power. She doesn’t like the fact that it is so powerfull and is upset that it wasn’t destroyed by the nazis. I think Satan is very upset that he failed to destory the church. And that is the source of the attacks on the church.

She claims to be an Anglican so maybe there is something I can say to her from that perspective.

Anyway, I gave her a number of articles and told her about what Albert Einstein said. this didn’t seem to work for the reasons I stated above in my previous post. She acused me of forcing my opinions on her.

 

[JamesG]

ABsitively:

It must be very frustrating trying to talk to this woman and I commend you for making the effort. I have found that in my own personal experience, people that have such huge problems with the Church are trying to justify events that have occured in their own lives. Perhaps whatever it is that is troubling her is too fresh to think about it rationally.

The common defence from these people goes like this.

1. Everyone has the right to their own point of view
2. You have no right to talk about your own truth if it causes others to change their mind.
3. Morality is relative to the individual.
4. And then they claim to be christian.

 

[Ruthmary]

JamesG:

Ruth,

Thank you so much for these articles and links.

I have had a conversation with this woman about most of what you have posted.

All that happens is that she gets mad at me “for forcing my views on her.” Every time I try to reason and prove her wrong she acuses me of this.

Some people don’t want to listen to the truth. It doesn’t mater how many facts you offer or how many good points you have. It doesn’t mater how nice you are to them.

They just want to live in their own world that is based on lies and emotion.

If you want to understand how this woman seems to think take a look at the post under “the culture of death” that I made.
the thread is called.
"she said “men don’t have any right to talk about abortion!”

I posted an msn conversation I had with her. She started to use the same defence when she was losing her argument. “I don’t have the right to force my views on others.”

Even if she is totally wrong she doesn’t want to be shown the truth. It is based on ignorance and not rational thinking.

This is why I ask for prayer .

I don’t know what your relationship is with this person, but it sounds to me as though it would be better to just leave this alone. Sometimes it’s just better to go your own way, and leave the person to God. As you say, she’s not open to rational thinking. There’s no point in arguing with such people. If someone is asking for evidence for your faith, then you can give it to them, but there’s no need to beat your head against a wall.

 

[spiritblows]

Hi James,
I notice that this is a tendency of yours, to start threads about a person that you are debating with about something. I posted on your other thread about your debate with a women who thinks that men shouldn’t have a say about abortion.

I have some observations. I’ve noticed that some people have a habit of asking to pray for someone, or claim to want to help someone, when they really just want to complain about them to other people. In fact, I’ve had people use the excuse to pray for someone as a way of gossiping about them and being negative, or relaying negative news.

Just a thought, please don’t take offense.

 

[JamesG]

spiritblows:

Hi James,
I notice that this is a tendency of yours, to start threads about a person that you are debating with about something. I posted on your other thread about your debate with a women who thinks that men shouldn’t have a say about abortion.

I have some observations. I’ve noticed that some people have a habit of asking to pray for someone, or claim to want to help someone, when they really just want to complain about them to other people. In fact, I’ve had people use the excuse to pray for someone as a way of gossiping about them and being negative, or relaying negative news.

Just a thought, please don’t take offense.

Well, don’t understand why you think it is a tendancy of mine. By what form of logical reason do you come to this conclusion?

I’ve asked for prayer for this woman because she doesn’t want to listen to the truth of christ and she is ignorant regarding many historical and theological truths about the catholic church.

I think she needs prayer for that reason. Do you not agree?