Point me in the right direction please

[Doggg]

Doggg in Christ,

Our faith, which is a grace from God, will save us if we live in the fullness of faith and not a simple belief. The fullness of faith includes obedience to faith.

The apostle Paul opens his letter to the Romans by stating that through Christ

Later Paul asks the question,
Paul goes on to add
Finally, Paul concludes Romans by giving glory to God and includes the phrase,

Notice how the book of Romans is structured from beginning, middle, to the end around the obedience of faith. And Paul says many things in Romans concerning that obedience versus sin and death.

Obedience is an integral part of faith. This is revealed in the words of Jesus in the gospel and is reinforced by the testimony of all of the apostles. It is important to remember that faith is a form of grace, and is an unearned gift from God, and that everything proceeds from the grace of God. If faith, as a simple belief, is all that is necessary for salvation, Paul would not tell us or that
Saving faith needs to be understood in terms of love also. In fact, Jesus tells us in the gospels that the two great commandments are to love God with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. If we believe in Jesus as the new covenant, our obedience to faith must include the Lord’s commands to love God and neighbor. The apostle Paul expresses this imperative when he says,

I hope this begins to help you properly see and understand the Catholic view. It is all Christ centered.

I disagree. The RC interpretation is all man centered. The biblical view of the “obedience of faith” is the same thing as “the righteousness that is by faith”. Obedience is simply one manifestation of righteousness, which is credited to every one who believes in Him. In the RC view, our good works are REQUIRED for our justification, and it is all a system of merit via our own good works. There appears to be no room for God’s wonderful mercy in any of it.

 

[Pax]

What is lacking is the spreading of the good news.

Paul’s suffering is the result of his persecution. There will often be persecution when people bring good news that is hated by those who do not want what is good.

Doggg in Christ,

I think your several attempts to answer this question are incomplete. Do you think that there is any relationship between the verse in question and Jesus words in Luke 9:23? The verse says:

And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

 

[Pax]

Doggg in Christ,

Do you think that there might be a connection to that verse in the scriptural teaching that the Church is the body of Christ?

Peace

 

[Pax]

What is lacking is the spreading of the good news.

Paul’s suffering is the result of his persecution. There will often be persecution when people bring good news that is hated by those who do not want what is good.

Why would what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions be restricted to the spreading of the good news? Wouldn’t there be other possibilities?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It would be extremely helpful if those who oppose the ‘faith alone’ point of view would explain what exactly is required for justification besides faith. If faith alone doesn’t justify anyone, then what does?

Grace.

God bless you

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by Doggg
It would be extremely helpful if those who oppose the ‘faith alone’ point of view would explain what exactly is required for justification besides faith. If faith alone doesn’t justify anyone, then what does?

Doggg, the whole of it has been said before in this thread and else where in these forums,let me just give it one more go.
Salvation is also a present process(phi 2:12
Our own works can never justify us but works that grow out of faith in Christ are part of our salvation.
That is what Paul says in Phil 2:12 and that squares with James teaching, that works which grow from faith justifies.
There are Protestants who do know and understand Catholic concepts of Faith and works.

To have a live faith you need works if you don’t have faith working in love you do not have live faith. Works are the fruit of salvation.

As I once heard one Apologist say a long time ago," If we read Matthews Gospel and make notes of the words of Jesus through out it , we will be enlightened.

'It is not reading Jesus through Paul( “the eyes of Paul”) or through our own interpretation of Paul, it is what Jesus says."
He also said, What is needed, after studying what Jesus says in Matthew is," Simply a heart changed and surrendered and submissive to the will of God.

Read Matt 16:24-27, This quote from Jesus must be remembered about what it takes to be a disciple, He doesn’t emphasize ‘Faith Alone, though faith is certainly presumed and he does not emphasize "FAith and works’,though again, works are clearly mentioned, what Jesus requires are hearts changed and surrendered and submissive to the will of God.
Sooooooo I can see and understand that if Protestants were to pray and ponder Matt 16:24-27 they would not be so hung up on Faith and works and what divides.

So may I suggest, Doggg, that you read and ponder the Gospel of Matthew.
In it Jesus is trying to get us to understand that we are to have hearts surrendered to the Father as a foundation for our faith and works—for apart from changed hearts both Faith and works are powerless to bring us to the Father.

Ponder the Doctrine of the Cross. Peace, Carlan

 

[Pax]

I disagree. The RC interpretation is all man centered. The biblical view of the “obedience of faith” is the same thing as “the righteousness that is by faith”. Obedience is simply one manifestation of righteousness, which is credited to every one who believes in Him. In the RC view, our good works are REQUIRED for our justification, and it is all a system of merit via our own good works. There appears to be no room for God’s wonderful mercy in any of it.

Doggg in Christ,

You’ve made this accusation about our interpretation being man centered which was refuted directly and indirectly on this thread numerous times. Likewise, your response to what I presented on the obedience of faith is simply not a refutation. Your basic answer is to be understood as disagreement without a substantive rebuttal.

Since you utterly refuse to give our presentations and Catholic teaching the recognition for what is actually said to you versus your preconceived notions, I am going to withdraw from the exchange. No hard feelings, and best wishes.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Doggg,
it is very apparent that you do not understand Catholc theology, On the plus side, you have found your way to Catholic Answers Forum, where there are many apologists that can help you understand what the Church actually teaches. On the downside, you have been on this forum for some time now and you still persist in making statements that reflect your biases like this one:

I disagree. The RC interpretation is all man centered. The biblical view of the “obedience of faith” is the same thing as “the righteousness that is by faith”. Obedience is simply one manifestation of righteousness, which is credited to every one who believes in Him. In the RC view, our good works are REQUIRED for our justification, and it is all a system of merit via our own good works. There appears to be no room for God’s wonderful mercy in any of it.

You see, this like many other statements about the Catholic church by non-Catholics is a half truth. The half that is true is that works of love ARE required to enter heaven. The half that is not true is that this is all that is required and that there is no room for God’s mercy in Catholic theology.

Here are the real facts about catholic theology:
We do in fact need God’s help to get to heaven. First of all God made us all we are. Secondly, God helps us attain to heaven by giving us our conscience to guide us and the grace necessary to lead lives of faith and love when we approach him through the sacraments. It is through grace, faith and conscience that God leads us to do the works of love that are required to enter heaven. Please note, that he LEADS us to do the works, but we must still do them of our own free will. Our love must be freely given because by definition love must be a voluntary act.

As for God’s mercy, when we sin and fall away, he allows us to reconcile with him through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession/pennance) and re-enter the state of grace that is required to enter heaven as many times as we desire to return. This is mercy combined with justice. He allows us to return to him as often as we are willing to do so (mercy) but if we choose not to do so, we are condemned (justice).

You see, the Catholic Church follows the Apostolic teachings that rightly balance God and man’s responsibility for man’s entrance into eternal life with God and also balance God’s mercy with his right judgement.

Your theology loses this balance, taking all responsibility away from man and putting it all on God. In this theology, there can be no justice, only mercy, because man can not be judged if he has no responsibility or ownership for anything he does. In fact, it renders man’s life pointless, doesn’t it, since nothing he does matters in the long run. This theology, if followed to its full conclusion, is devastating for an individual’s soul because it removes all motivation to do the works of love that are required for heaven.

Fortunately, you probably don’t really believe this theology deep down, because you are busy trying to evangelize and you wouldn’t do that if you really believed it didn’t matter. That’s part of God’s mercy, he is still leading you to the truth, even if you intellectually fight against it. And he has led you here, not by accident and probably not for the reasons you thought We see this played out over and over. People enter CAF thinking they are going to provide the answers to Catholics, only to find the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Notice all the people on here who have signature lines about swimming the Tiber. They are all converts, many of which started out just like you. May your eyes be opened to the full truth.

 

[Philthy]

I disagree. The RC interpretation is all man centered. The biblical view of the “obedience of faith” is the same thing as “the righteousness that is by faith”. Obedience is simply one manifestation of righteousness, which is credited to every one who believes in Him. In the RC view, our good works are REQUIRED for our justification, and it is all a system of merit via our own good works. There appears to be no room for God’s wonderful mercy in any of it.

The confidence you exhibit in demonstrating your complete ignorance is astounding. You have apparently learned nothing regarding Catholic theology; in your mind it remains what you wish it to be, the truth be damned! But all is not lost - anyone who wishes to read through the posts and follow the discussion in pursuit of the truth can easily see whether what you propose is reasonable based upon the posts. For that I am grateful!

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

It occurs to me and has been repeatedly demonstrated during this thread that with some folks the simplest explanations are the best. I created this parable of grace, faith and works some years ago and I hope it will clarify some aspects of the necessity of each. I hope it helps…

Philthy’s Parable

Here’s an analogy on grace and our need to cooperate with it for your consideration:

You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!

God comes along and freely gives us a seed that begins to grow. Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die! At first you water the plant exactly as God told you – grateful to have a flower. With time, however, due to distractions from the world around you, you become complacent with watering the flower not sensing that anything is wrong. With time you come to ignore watering the plant and, after a while, it dies.

Explanation:
The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The flower is a living relationship with God: eternal life
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works”
Watering the plant is the “works”(faith, repentance, forgiving others) part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It may grow for a while, but if you ignore them it will die.

 

[Doggg]

Doggg in Christ,

You’ve made this accusation about our interpretation being man centered which was refuted directly and indirectly on this thread numerous times. Likewise, your response to what I presented on the obedience of faith is simply not a refutation. Your basic answer is to be understood as disagreement without a substantive rebuttal.

Since you utterly refuse to give our presentations and Catholic teaching the recognition for what is actually said to you versus your preconceived notions, I am going to withdraw from the exchange. No hard feelings, and best wishes.

God bless.

We’ve just been going round and round with our refutations of each others points. It isn’t really very profitable for us to wrangle over the words of Scripture when the whole testimony of the word of God is so utterly opposed to your interpretations.

I was planning to provide a rather lengthy “global refutation” of your faith plus works justification formula. After giving it more thought, I realize that it would probably take us off-topic, since I would have gone into some detail to prove that in creation, and in salvation especially, God wills to make Himself the sole object of glory for all eternity. I will instead, shorten my remarks as I bring my argument to its conclusion.

Your attempt to give God the credit for saving you doesn’t stand up under scrutiny. If God only initially justifies you, then what? Do you still get into heaven even if you don’t use your free will righteously enough? Where would you end up if you were found deficient in terms of your good works? What happens to all those who do enough good works throughout their lives, but they do them sometimes without perfect motives (working at least in part, for a hoped-for reward)?

You have determined that our love for God is required for our salvation but here again, you’ve got causes and their effects reversed. Love isn’t forcibly extracted as a result of imposed duty or obligation. By its nature, love is given freely. The love that the elect have for their Savior is not something that God forcibly extracts from them because of a new Divine law which demands that they MUST love God enough in order to obtain entry into heaven, instead, the elect love God because they believe that Jesus has already finished everything that is needed for their salvation. They love Him for what He has already completed for them, and not because they believe that they HAVE TO love Him in order to be admitted into heaven. You will no doubt object, and tell me that it is quite obvious that I don’t understand Catholic theology. My answer: It isn’t my theology that would lead to the forcible extraction of “love” from unwilling souls serving an angry and unloving master who only saves those who are “worthy enough”. It is my view that every part of salvation, including perseverance, is provided to the unworthy elect for free.

You say that Catholics do not believe that they must earn their way into heaven. But you have already seen that justification is by grace, through faith, apart from works of the law. You’ve been reminded that boasting is excluded. For what reason is boasting excluded? Is it excluded for being bad manners, or is it excluded because saved people have done nothing for their salvation on which to boast? You might object and tell me that the text is only referring to works of the “ceremonial law.” Well, assuming you are correct and we’re not justified by the works of ceremonial law, then how does that do away with boasting? How is that compatible with being saved by grace?

It is amazing to hear from Catholics that I’m simply not understanding what Catholics believe. This is absolutely false. The reason I have to reject WORKS salvation is because it is so thoroughly repudiated by the authors of the bible. It ought to be unthinkable for any person who wishes to be called “Christian” to endorse the view that, although Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by his faith and not by his works, James is teaching that Abraham was justified by both his faith and his works! If you can endorse a blatant conflict in the teaching of two apostles, then it really isn’t surprising that you would accuse me of misunderstanding Catholic theology. What else could you say to defend what is indefensible?

It is also a fact that Catholics will very rarely admit that they endorse “earned justification”. Now I can see why they don’t like that characterization of their beliefs, but what else is it? How will they distance themselves from what they continually demand? Every time I attempt to re-focus their attention to God’s mercy and free grace, Catholics attempt to re-focus me toward human works of merit that they insist are required for justification. If I’ve succeeded in proving anything here, I’ve proven that the Catholic view of works justification makes it impossible to worship Jesus. How is it possible to stay focused on what Jesus has done for us (much less worship Him for it) if you believe that your salvation is largely about what you must do, and continue to do? How is God glorified in any of that?

God bless all of you,

Doggg

 

[Pax]

Doggg in Christ,

You have just proven by your remarks that you do not understand Catholic teaching.

Find one time in this entire thread where we have said anything that remotely resembles your comments that God “forcibly extracts love from his elect.” Your remarks are why I’m sensing some futility in the discussion. We do not believe anything in the way that you portray it in your post.

I could cover again every remark you’ve made in this post, but why should I bother? Anyone that has been reading this thread would know that you have mis-characterized all that has been presented. You bring up boasting. Have you not read what we’ve said to you concerning God’s grace as it pertains to faith and works? If all is by the grace of God, then there is no boasting in faith or in the works that the Father prepared before hand. Because we have faith can we boast that it is us that believes, as if God’s grace is nothing and human effort is all there is in belief? No we cannot do so, and the same applies to the works that are in Christ Jesus by way of grace. You simply overlook this and mischaracterize what we are saying because you have nothing of substance and only a straw man to attack.

You can attempt to twist and mis-characterize that all you want, but it will not change the true message of scripture.

God bless.

 

[Abeyta85]

Pax, Phillithy, and everyone who contributed to the discussion,

I want to thank you very much for your time, and work speaking with Dogg. I did not start this thread to have it end up being a 24 pages thread. As I observed I learned more and more. Still I didn’t know enough to enter the conversation. The guy who I was originally talking too stopped replying to me, because I realized he was taking everything out of context and dwelling on just that, but never refuting what I had placed in front of him. He kept attempting to using his own logic, but again that the problem. Using his interpretation on logic.

I Still think this thread is amazing. It has a great deal of information regarding Sola Fide. I saw about every way imaginable explained to Doagg, and even though he didn’t understand it, I did!

So again I just want to thank everyone, this has really helped me in becoming a stronger Catholic!

God Bless!

 

[paul_c]

We’ve just been going round and round with our refutations of each others points. It isn’t really very profitable for us to wrangle over the words of Scripture when the whole testimony of the word of God is so utterly opposed to your interpretations.

Doggg, how exactly is the Bible utterly opposed to the catholic interpretation. Catholics wrote the books of the new testament and then Catholics compiled those books into the bible for the purpose of teaching the Catholic Faith. Books that were not consistent with Catholic theology were excluded from the Canon. This is an historical fact that can not be denied.

I was planning to provide a rather lengthy “global refutation” of your faith plus works justification formula. After giving it more thought, I realize that it would probably take us off-topic, since I would have gone into some detail to prove that in creation, and in salvation especially, God wills to make Himself the sole object of glory for all eternity. I will instead, shorten my remarks as I bring my argument to its conclusion.

Refuting a faith plus works justification formula would be arguing against a strawman and indeed would be pointless.

Your attempt to give God the credit for saving you doesn’t stand up under scrutiny. If God only initially justifies you, then what? Do you still get into heaven even if you don’t use your free will righteously enough? Where would you end up if you were found deficient in terms of your good works? What happens to all those who do enough good works throughout their lives, but they do them sometimes without perfect motives (working at least in part, for a hoped-for reward)?

You are building another strawman here. Getting to heaven isn’t an accounting excercise. Its about learning to love. You simply need to end your life in the state of Grace. You get in the state of grace through baptism and you stay there by loving God and neighbor. The sacraments, most particularly the eucharist fill you with the grace that helps you to love… And if you fall from grace, you can be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation.

You have determined that our love for God is required for our salvation but here again, you’ve got causes and their effects reversed. Love isn’t forcibly extracted as a result of imposed duty or obligation. By its nature, love is given freely. The love that the elect have for their Savior is not something that God forcibly extracts from them because of a new Divine law which demands that they MUST love God enough in order to obtain entry into heaven, instead, the elect love God because they believe that Jesus has already finished everything that is needed for their salvation. They love Him for what He has already completed for them, and not because they believe that they HAVE TO love Him in order to be admitted into heaven. You will no doubt object, and tell me that it is quite obvious that I don’t understand Catholic theology. My answer: It isn’t my theology that would lead to the forcible extraction of “love” from unwilling souls serving an angry and unloving master who only saves those who are “worthy enough”. It is my view that every part of salvation, including perseverance, is provided to the unworthy elect for free.

You are right, you don’t understand Catholic theology and you don’t understand love. Love is doing something without expecting a return. God is the essence of love. He does everything without expecting a return. What you descibe above (loving someone to get to heaven) isn’t love.

You say that Catholics do not believe that they must earn their way into heaven. But you have already seen that justification is by grace, through faith, apart from works of the law. You’ve been reminded that boasting is excluded. For what reason is boasting excluded? Is it excluded for being bad manners, or is it excluded because saved people have done nothing for their salvation on which to boast? You might object and tell me that the text is only referring to works of the “ceremonial law.” Well, assuming you are correct and we’re not justified by the works of ceremonial law, then how does that do away with boasting? How is that compatible with being saved by grace?

Honestly, I don’t care a wit about justification. That is not a word normally used by Catholics. We gain grace through the sacraments and if we die in Grace, we go to heaven. Its about works of love (doing things because you want to help someone) not works of the law (doing things because you are compelled to do so under threat of penalty). And how can we boast to God? Did he not make us everything we are?

It is amazing to hear from Catholics that I’m simply not understanding what Catholics believe. This is absolutely false. The reason I have to reject WORKS salvation is because it is so thoroughly repudiated by the authors of the bible. It ought to be unthinkable for any person who wishes to be called “Christian” to endorse the view that, although Paul teaches that Abraham was justified by his faith and not by his works, James is teaching that Abraham was justified by both his faith and his works! If you can endorse a blatant conflict in the teaching of two apostles, then it really isn’t surprising that you would accuse me of misunderstanding Catholic theology. What else could you say to defend what is indefensible?

Doggg, you need to live our your faith with works of love. This is consistent with both James and Paul’s statements. And you don’t understand what Catholics believe. That is very apparent from this post. Instead of telling Catholics what we believe, wouldn’t it make more sense to let us tell you what we believe.

 

[paul_c]

It is also a fact that Catholics will very rarely admit that they endorse “earned justification”. Now I can see why they don’t like that characterization of their beliefs, but what else is it? How will they distance themselves from what they continually demand? Every time I attempt to re-focus their attention to God’s mercy and free grace, Catholics attempt to re-focus me toward human works of merit that they insist are required for justification. If I’ve succeeded in proving anything here, I’ve proven that the Catholic view of works justification makes it impossible to worship Jesus. How is it possible to stay focused on what Jesus has done for us (much less worship Him for it) if you believe that your salvation is largely about what you must do, and continue to do? How is God glorified in any of that?

Do you really believe you’ve proved Catholics don’t worship Jesus? this is a foolish statement. In a month, you will be embarrassed that you said such a thing - trust me. It is very easy to stay focused on what Jesus has done for us when we try to follow him as best we can through words and actions. And God is glorified in works of love done in his name. When we tell you that you need to live out your life with love, how does that detract from God’s mercy and free grace?

 

[paul_c]

Pax, Phillithy, and everyone who contributed to the discussion,

I want to thank you very much for your time, and work speaking with Dogg. I did not start this thread to have it end up being a 24 pages thread. As I observed I learned more and more. Still I didn’t know enough to enter the conversation. The guy who I was originally talking too stopped replying to me, because I realized he was taking everything out of context and dwelling on just that, but never refuting what I had placed in front of him. He kept attempting to using his own logic, but again that the problem. Using his interpretation on logic.

I Still think this thread is amazing. It has a great deal of information regarding Sola Fide. I saw about every way imaginable explained to Doagg, and even though he didn’t understand it, I did!

So again I just want to thank everyone, this has really helped me in becoming a stronger Catholic!

God Bless!

what you point out is very important. Many lurkers benefit tremendously from apologetics not directed specifically toward them. And people like Doggg are a very important part of the process because they provide the forums and impetus for explaining these things.

 

[Abeyta85]

what you point out is very important. Many lurkers benefit tremendously from apologetics not directed specifically toward them. And people like Doggg are a very important part of the process because they provide the forums and impetus for explaining these things.

I agree. As i read through the debate, I saw where Doggg was coming from even though it was incorrect, I could see why he was trying to make his points, and refuting others. Though I don’t agree with Sola Fida, I have a better understanding on why some may believe it. I also have a very good take on the Catholic argument against it, and it really makes sense.

 

[Pax]

Doggg in Christ,

You failed to refute all that was given concerning Judas. Obviously, you remain unconvinced regardless of the evidence and your inability to refute it. So, let’s look at another example in scripture that meets all of the criteria for justification and salvation according to Protestant doctrine. This example will clearly show that your position and criticisms of Catholic teaching is absolutely false.

The story about Simon the Magician is helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again, Simon is not described as a believer without root, or a false believer or any other such thing.

We are told in Acts 8:13

“Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on of hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you”[Acts 8:20-22].

This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying,

"Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead, it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We learn several things here:

—Simon is a believer and was even baptized.

—Simon is in danger of losing his salvation.

—Peter tells Simon that he must “repent.” He does not accuse Simon of being an “unbeliever.”

—Peter tells Simon to pray to the Lord that he will be forgiven. Telling a non-believer to pray to the Lord for forgiveness would make no sense in this context.

—Simon asks Peter to pray for him so that he “would not perish”. A false believer would not ask a believer to pray for them, and would have no confidence that such prayers would be helpful.

Simon was a believer, but most scholars contend that Simon the Magician lost his salvation or was never saved in the first place. The scripture as explained demonstrates the former but denies the latter.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Doggg in Christ,

I think we have effectively demonstrated to you over the course of this thread that grace is the great enabler that empowers everything done by the Christian in Jesus Christ, and that everything good that we do is literally the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. I have also pointed out to you that faith is both a gift and a work, and I have given plenty of scripture and logic in the past to support this point as well. You have balked at this because in the end you believe that if we have any participation in the process than our salvation is works righteousness.

I can appreciate your point about this, but I believe it to be doctrinally driven and not scripturally driven. I also think that you have set up some obstacles in your logic because of your sincere and deeply held doctrinal beliefs. You perhaps see my views in a similar fashion.

That having been said, I am going to try another approach in talking about the same points that I have made concerning God’s grace at work in us and our part, if there is any, in that plan. We are not inert beings. God made us in his image and likeness, and He did so deliberately. God also created things that are not alive and do not think, but some are not completely inert. The sun is a great example of something quite powerful, quite active, and yet not alive. The nuclear furnace of the sun is quite active and dynamic and it would neither exist or operate unless God willed it and sustained it as He does all things in the universe.

It is proper to say that the sun sustains life on earth even though the sun is clueless about what it is doing. The sun is performing exactly as God designed it and willed it to operate. Nevertheless, the sun’s composition and character have a function and the sun does what it does by its very nature. One cannot separate the sun from what it is and what it does.

Likewise, animals are not inert. They of course are wonderful living creatures created by God but they were not created in his image and likeness. Animals act and live according to God’s plan for them. There is a certain amount of intelligence built into each species appropriate to its nature and they all act and react according to that nature. They follow God’s plan and design even if only by instinct and limited intelligence.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

In scripture we read about Balaam’s donkey[see Numbers 22:22-34].
Needless to say Balaam had an ordinary beast of burden upon which he road and this animal only acted according to its nature until God intervened. It becomes clear in the narrative that **God enabled the animal **to see the angel of the Lord standing in the road, while Balaam initially could not. The scripture tells us in verse 28

"Then the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”

Scripture then tells us in verse 31 that

“the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord…”

Balaam then speaks with both the donkey and the angel.

These strange and unnatural events happened by way of the power of God. In the life of the Christian grace acts upon the individual in a similarly miraculous fashion. By grace we are able to please God. Examples of scripture telling us this are:

1 John 3:22
we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him.

Col 1:10
so that you may lead lives worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God.

1 Thess 4:1
Finally, brothers and sisters, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus that, as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God (as, in fact, you are doing), you should do so more and more.

Prov 16: 6-7
By loyalty and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one avoids evil. When the ways of people please the LORD, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

In a way we are not unlike Balaam’s donkey. Balaam’s donkey spoke and apparently employed thought processes beyond that of its everyday life. Balaam’s donkey did something by way of God’s power working within it. Based on the nature of what donkeys normally do vs. what Balaam’s donkey did, it is quite proper to say what scripture says in stating

"And the donkey said to Balaam, ‘Am I not your donkey, upon which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Was I ever accustomed to do so to you?’ "

Clearly, Balaam’s donkey spoke. Not only did it speak these words but it said some others as well. Moreover, the donkey also saw the angel even when Balaam did not. So the donkey spoke and the donkey saw the angel. This is impossible for a donkey except by way of God’s power and grace.

Your logic against Catholic teaching on justification as works righteousness needs to be applied against the narrative of Balaam’s donkey to recognize the break down of your criticisms. Balaam’s donkey spoke and saw the angel. This was something that Balaam’s donkey did and it is testified to in scripture. This set of events is a miracle, but it is improper to suggest that the donkey worked a miracle. Likewise, when we do good works in justification as described by James and even Paul in Eph 2:10, it is not us that are doing the justifying through works righteousness. We cannot do anything that is pleasing to God outside of faith and God’s grace anymore than Balaam’s donkey could speak or see an angel without God enabling it to perform in this miraculous manner. Balaam’s donkey was an active participant in the miracle on the road, and we are active participants in justification by living by the power of God’s grace through faith and works. Before God’s grace we are like the donkey. We live as natural unregenerated men and women. Once God’s justifies us we are changed.

God’s purpose for us is according to Rom 8:28

“…to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

This is exactly what begins at our initial justification per Eph 2:8-10. We are justified as a gift and

“we are his[God’s] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

The important phrase is that we are God’s workmanship. We are not our workmanship anymore than Balaam’s donkey would be its own workmanship. We cannot claim the glory even though we do the good works in Christ Jesus that God prepared for us, any more than Balaam’s donkey can claim the glory for having seen the angel or having spoken to Balaam.

I hope this helps.