Poll on the current Vatican/SSPX Discussions

[Melchior_1]

Not all, just the ones that allow Life Teen Masses.

Funny stuff, that. Inaccurate and grossly incorrect, which is probably why it’s funny. Bordering on trolling, actually, because I wonder if you just said that to get a reaction.

I’d pay money to see you visit the Companion’s of the Cross (metaphorical money, because I’m dirt poor right now).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This is an approved revelation that the church has ruled to be authentic. I agree it is not binding but am amazed that you do not follow the Pope in his belief on this. Are we all free to accept or reject that which has not been dogmatically stamped with the seal of infallibility per the formula of Vatican I?

Its funny how you read minds as I never stated whether or not I believe in any of the Church approved revelations or not.

I just do not believe that the Church is the proper place for the practice of a private devotion especially when it supplants a public devotion when doing so (such as the rosary in the Byzantine Church taking the place of matins (orthos)).

 

[giuseppeTO]

Funny stuff, that. Inaccurate and grossly incorrect, which is probably why it’s funny. Bordering on trolling, actually, because I wonder if you just said that to get a reaction.

I’d pay money to see you visit the Companion’s of the Cross (metaphorical money, because I’m dirt poor right now).

I did just say it for reaction but most Traditional Catholics will agree that ANY Mass that moves the focus from the Sacrifice on Calvary to any feel-good man-centered point is dead wrong. Life Teens Masses and Charismatic Hootenannys fall into that category. The Mass is The Mass and when you put an adjective in front of it like Life Teen Mass, or Gay Mass, you detract from the focus.

It is VERY sad that we have to cajole teens into church by making it fun for them because if they are not there for the Holy Sacrifice, they will eventually move on to something that is more fun. If they are there for the Holy Sacrifice, than ANY Mass should do.

Interestingly, we don’t seem to have that problem with teens in traditional parishes.

Don’t know the Companion’s of the Cross and I’m sure they’re very pious but the money does not exist that will convince me to assist at any Mass other than the Mass of St. John Bosco and St. Alphonsus Liguori. But, send the money anyway (1st Comm Bank: 1987638) and I’ll think about it.

 

[Melchior_1]

I did just say it for reaction but most Traditional Catholics will agree that ANY Mass that moves the focus from the Sacrifice on Calvary to any feel-good man-centered point is dead wrong. Life Teens Masses and Charismatic Hootenannys fall into that category. The Mass is The Mass and when you put an adjective in front of it like Life Teen Mass, or Gay Mass, you detract from the focus.

Don’t know the Companion’s of the Cross and I’m sure they’re very pious but the money does not exist that will convince me to assist at any Mass other than the Mass of St. John Bosco and St. Alphonsus Liguori. But, send the money anyway (1st Comm Bank: 1987638) and I’ll think about it.

I’m a capital “T” Traditional Catholic and I disagree with you. You might want to consider using a lower-case “t”.

If I was properly employed I’d actually consider it, but I need to focus on providing for my family first. And yes, the Companion’s of the Cross are exceptional on all fronts. And in addition to everything else, their Church by my apartment offers perpetual Adoration. Can’t argue with that!

Christ is still the focus at Life Teen Masses. If you went to the LT web site you will see that Christ is clearly at the center of the ministry. If you went to my Church you would see that as well.

You don’t like adding adjectives to Mass…like say…the LATIN Mass, perhaps? Even with OF and EF there’s still an adjective there (“Ordinary” and “Extraordinary”) . Ditto with the different valid Rites within the Church.

You’re right though; Mass is Mass is Mass. I don’t frown upon the EF, I frown upon the attitude some of the people that go there and support it have. If you’re the same way towards non-EF Masses, I understand that (because some people are dumb and do dumb things). Otherwise, there may be some additional differences between us.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Its funny how you read minds as I never stated whether or not I believe in any of the Church approved revelations or not.

Since the Pope just visited Fatima and has taught (albeit not ex-cathedra) that Our Blessed Mother’s message of Fatima is not yet fulfilled, I am surprised that you believe there is even any room to dissent from the Pope’s teaching on the matter. You are basically saying that the Pope could be wrong on this and somehow, the Holy Ghost has failed to guide him on the authenticity of Fatima. And I begin to wonder, if he is wrong on this, I wonder what else he has taught on is also wrong. And then I look at the previous Pope and wonder which of his non-ex-cathedra teachings might be wrong.

I just do not believe that the Church is the proper place for the practice of a private devotion especially when it supplants a public devotion when doing so (such as the rosary in the Byzantine Church taking the place of matins (orthos)).

You must be kidding! The church is not the proper place to say the rosary!!??!!

Matins and the rosary peacefully co-exist in the Latin church. So, are you saying that orthos, followed by private or public recitation of the rosary would somehow be unacceptable? I am trying to be respectful of the Byzantine Rite and at the same time trying to understand this as a grounds for excommunication.

 

[Aramis]

Well, if they want to be Latins, it looks like Bishop Williamson helped them do that. Obviously he cannot ordain them into any other rite. So lets just let them offer Mass in the rite they are ordained and, with charity, lift the excommunications. They would of course share the SSPX current canonical situation of having no approved ministry until such a time as that is rectified.

Wrong again.

A man must be ordained into the Rite he is of, and must be trained in that Rite, but he can be ordained by a bishop of any Catholic Church for service in the Rite he is of and trained in.

Happens routinely in Ethiopia. Men are ordained for the Roman Rite by Ethiopian Rite bishops. Some Russian Catholic Church priests are ordained by Roman Rite Bishops. Ruthenian Bishops ordained Latin Rite priests in the USSR.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Since the Pope just visited Fatima and has taught (albeit not ex-cathedra) that Our Blessed Mother’s message of Fatima is not yet fulfilled, I am surprised that you believe there is even any room to dissent from the Pope’s teaching on the matter.

Again, not saying what I believe just stating what the Church actually Teaches. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
We have the fullness of public revelation. Private revelation can add nothing to that. Even if the pope believes in Fatima and states that it has yet to be fulfilled that still does not mean that it is adding anything to the Deposit of Faith that we already hold from the Church and it therefore is not necessary for salvation.

Funny how if I chose to not follow the pope in his opinion of a private revelation you think there is something wrong yet when you chose not to follow him on something more deeply Catholic it is ok.

Think it is time to imploy the ignore feature and get on with life.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Funny how if I chose to not follow the pope in his opinion of a private revelation you think there is something wrong yet when you chose not to follow him on something more deeply Catholic it is ok.

Brother David, could you not tell I was just ‘leading the witness’.

 

[crazzeto]

This has been stated in many different ways by many Popes and some councils. Even Vatican II expressly stated that Latin be retained in the liturgies. Latin is the official language of the Church. Maybe those who attend all-“venacular” all-the-time Masses are the ones who are disobedient.

No one is arguing that there shouldn’t be a Latin Mass, and in fact there is one (I can go Sundays 4pm at the Cathedral in Raleigh). I’m not making comments about whether or not there should be a latin mass (as I’m sure you fully understand), rather whether or not the Church has “the right” to make a vulgar toung mass as well as to make the other doctrinal statements made on and about Vatican II either explicitly by the Council or by the Pontiff him self.

You really can’t argue the Church is in the wrong to make available a vulgar toung mass, or that this is something that has never happened before. It’s happned before, that why we have a Latin mass, it was the vulgar toung in the West. In fact, the Church has also repeatedly made available the bible in the vulgar toung over the centuries as well as music etc.

It’s just that until fairly recently, Latin worked very well as the Western universal vulgar toung. There is no such thing truely now, the Church it’s self makes everything available in latin first of course, but then from there everything is translated so the layity world wide can read it.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s just that until fairly recently, Latin worked very well as the Western universal vulgar toung. There is no such thing truely now, the Church it’s self makes everything available in latin first of course, but then from there everything is translated so the layity world wide can read it.

There are an estimated 7,000 distinct languages in the world today. How in the world can the Vatican authenticize the translations into every single one of them or even 100 of them? We’re still debating what the SP 2007 translations into English are. Sure anyone can read the translations but no translations, NONE, ZIPPO, are as precise as the original.

As the well-pointed Italian phrase goes, “Traduttore, tradittore” (“Translator, traitor”)