polyandry in mormonism

[lynnettejane]

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but we have heard on these forums an awful lot about polygamy in mormonism. That it was practiced cannot be denied as it is a matter of record. But perhaps less well known was the fact that JS married other men’s wives therefore these women were in polyandrous relationships. This demonstrates JS power over his followers and getting away with simply because he could. This is one of the most damning evidences, amongst many, against him being a prophet.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Some of these polyandrous marriages are documented. In 1838, Joseph Smith married Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris, wife of George W. Harris. There are others.

 

[ParkerD]

Some of these polyandrous marriages are documented. In 1838, Joseph Smith married Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris, wife of George W. Harris. There are others.

None of which were the kind of “marriage” that means being together in a marriage relationship, nor having children, nor having the possibility of having children because there was not the kind of union that leads to having children. They were “sealings” because evidently JS knew something about the husband that led him to believe the husband was not qualified for a sealing in marriage, and the woman wanted a “sealing” rather than just a “time-only marriage”.

(This is not done today, nor has it been done except in the days of Joseph Smith, who was still learning line upon line, precept upon precept about temple sealings and their purposes. Rough Stone Rolling, a scholarly history by a respected historian (Bushman) who researched in detail, discusses this.)

 

[KathleenGee]

I read of the 33 or wives of Joseph Smith. They were all named and included women who were already married to someone else.

I read facial expressions and Joseph Smith looked to me like a very seductive man. His expression even reminds me of Bill Clinton’s, young attitude for his age.

But the painted image of him on the Deseret Book store’s children library was that of an entirely different character, more of a benevolent and humane man of reason.

 

[ParkerD]

I read of the 33 or wives of Joseph Smith. They were all named and included women who were already married to someone else.

I read facial expressions and Joseph Smith looked to me …

KathleenGee,

Do you realize that there are no “photographs or live portraits” of Joseph Smith, at all? Of course if you’re going to look at someone’s rendition who wanted him to appear “seductive” then he would appear “seductive”.

Do you not realize how that works with an artist taking the liberty of whatever portrayal they want to come up with, especially if it sells well with the public (who wants to be sold a certain kind of portrayal), with someone for whom there is no photograph or live portrait in existence?

 

[lynnettejane]

parker, Brigham Young married Zena Huntingdon, who was already married and he had a daughter with her, and before you say she was widowed, her first husband died after Brigham Young. Also, she was married/sealed to Joseph Smith, what the heck was going on there? It’s all on the IGI and I invite all on this thread to check it out. These were not prophets but libertines

 

[lynnettejane]

Does “still learning line upon line precept upon precept” somehow mitigate this outrageous and unscriptural teaching?? What are you saying Parker, that he was only new at the game so he was allowed to make a few errors, even though he was supposed to have been directed by God?

 

[ParkerD]

Does “still learning line upon line precept upon precept” somehow mitigate this …?? What are you saying Parker, that he was only new at the game so he was allowed to make a few errors, even though he was supposed to have been directed by God?

Lynnette Jane,

It serves your purposes for him to have needed to be perfect, and needed to have gotten everything perfectly right as he asked questions and refined doctrines that were “new” in his day and time and were thus obtained by revelation. He didn’t get all the answers with one question having been asked, and thus he could indeed make "mistakes–errors, go one direction and then need to shift because there was more to it than he had understood.

Being in a conversation relationship with God means that He won’t reveal that which is not asked, and will let us stumble in that if we don’t ask, we don’t receive. We also need to be humble enough to change direction as “line upon line, precept upon precept” are revealed.

 

[lax16]

None of which were the kind of “marriage” that means being together in a marriage relationship, nor having children, nor having the possibility of having children because there was not the kind of union that leads to having children. They were “sealings” because evidently JS knew something about the husband that led him to believe the husband was not qualified for a sealing in marriage, and the woman wanted a “sealing” rather than just a “time-only marriage”.

(This is not done today, nor has it been done except in the days of Joseph Smith, who was still learning line upon line, precept upon precept about temple sealings and their purposes. Rough Stone Rolling, a scholarly history by a respected historian (Bushman) who researched in detail, discusses this.)

Are you saying that he was only “involved” with Emma and nobody else? Ever?

 

[KathleenGee]

I saw what were stated to be photos of Joseph Smith…will go to a search…

 

[lax16]

I saw what were stated to be photos of Joseph Smith…will go to a search…

I picked up a brochure about him recently and in one picture he had blue and in another brown - they hardly resembed each other, but I believe they were both of him…

 

[lynnettejane]

Parker, you must be the master of whaffle, if he hadn’t got all the answers from God then what was he doing instigating these doctrines. And you haven’t answered the question about sealings to more than one husband.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I just came back from viewing pictures…and there is one that I saw, but in another manner that made me have that impression of Joseph Smith. However, there is another picture that also has a death mask overlaid after his death that matches the photo when he was alive. And then there is another picture of his alleged mother, and the latter picture of Joseph Smith matches that of his mother.

So I am incorrect in my observation of this first picture. You are right that the one I saw was not him.

But I wonder if the second one is the picture of Joseph Smith, and I did not know that the general Mormon belief has it that there are no pictures available. One lady said she has seen a thousand pictures of Joseph Smith…

I didn’t realize Joseph Smith is that fleeting…

 

[ParkerD]

Are you saying that he was only “involved” with Emma and nobody else? Ever?

Lax16,

Correct as far as the thread which has to do with being sealed to women who were already married.

I think Emma told others that Joseph was indeed only “involved” with Emma. But I don’t know that as far as every sealing with someone who only had the one marriage to him. Perhaps so, perhaps not.

We know all attempts to claim DNA linkage with him besides through Emma have come out that he was not the father.

 

[lynnettejane]

Well we know how good the mormon hierarchy are at covering things up, so how can we trust DNA evidence

 

[RebeccaJ]

There was also the practice of sending pregnant girls/women “away”, such as in the case of Fanny Alger. And, there was an underground abortion practice going on in Nauvoo.“Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened.”

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Correct as far as the thread which has to do with being sealed to women who were already married.

I think Emma told others that Joseph was indeed only “involved” with Emma. But I don’t know that as far as every sealing with someone who only had the one marriage to him. Perhaps so, perhaps not.

We know all attempts to claim DNA linkage with him besides through Emma have come out that he was not the father.

So he did not have intimate relationships with the women he was “sealed” to while they were married to other men, is that correct?

Why would he need to marry/get sealed/do anything else with these women if they were already married?

What is the importance of him not fathering children with anyone other than Emma if he was sealed to them - is that a different kind of relationship than a polygamous one?
Would it be okay if he fathered children with a woman he married in a polygamous relationship (vs polyandrous?)

 

[Jim_Dandy]

None of which were the kind of “marriage” that means being together in a marriage relationship, nor having children, nor having the possibility of having children because there was not the kind of union that leads to having children. They were “sealings” because evidently JS knew something about the husband that led him to believe the husband was not qualified for a sealing in marriage, and the woman wanted a “sealing” rather than just a “time-only marriage”.

(This is not done today, nor has it been done except in the days of Joseph Smith, who was still learning line upon line, precept upon precept about temple sealings and their purposes. Rough Stone Rolling, a scholarly history by a respected historian (Bushman) who researched in detail, discusses this.)

Mormonism asks us to believe that Joseph Smith had a direct pipeline to God and was instructed directly and personally by God. Now you ask us to believe that Joseph Smith was “still learning – precept upon precept.”

Mormons are spin masters. You and others spin every fact presented to you to protect Joseph Smith. It’s amazing how you refuse to see the truth about this man and his teachings.

Joseph Smith married Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris, wife of George W. Harris, in 1838, while he was living in the Harris home. Mrs. Sarah Pratt, in an interview with W Wyl, said: "Mrs. Harris was a married lady, a very great friend of mine. When Joseph had made his dastardly attempt on me [in 1842], I went to Mrs. Harris to unbosum my grief to her. To my utter astonishment, she said, laughing heartily, ‘How foolish you are! Why, I am his mistress since four years!’ " (Mormon Portraits, p. 60, quoted in No Man Knows My History, The Life of Joseph Smith).

I know, I know, Mormons discount author Fawn Brodie’s history. She was a Mormon when she started her research for her life of Joseph Smith, and an ex-Mormon when she finished.

Here one woman asserts that she was sexually attacked (a “dastardly attempt on me”) by Smith, and Mrs. Harris admits that she has been “his mistress” for four years.

Prophet of God? Uh uh.

Jim Dandy

 

[lax16]

Mormonism asks us to believe that Joseph Smith had a direct pipeline to God and was instructed directly and personally by God. Now you ask us to believe that Joseph Smith was “still learning – precept upon precept.”

Good point.

And isn’t it hard to imagine God personally directing JS to get involved with all of those women?

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Mormonism asks us to believe that Joseph Smith had a direct pipeline to God and was instructed directly and personally by God. Now you ask us to believe that Joseph Smith was “still learning – precept upon precept.”

Of course. There is no contradiction. Prophets don’t know everything, are not infallible nor impeccable, and are not always receiving revelation from God on every single thing. This is also clear from the Biblical examples of prophets.

Mormons are spin masters. You and others spin every fact presented to you to protect Joseph Smith. It’s amazing how you refuse to see the truth about this man and his teachings.

What is amazing to me is how very similar this sounds to what anti-Catholics claim about what Catholics “really” believe and “really” teach, and about “doing everything to protect their Church”. But of course you rightly reject their arguments. No, Latter-day Saints are well aware of the truth about Joseph Smith and his teaches. What we refuse to accept is the spin provided by anti-Mormon spin masters (not necessarily you) and those who use their arguments.