Pondering of a baptist friend

  • Thread starter Thread starter Shaolen
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Shaolen

Guest
My Baptist friend is asking some deep questions and I was wondering what are some catholic responses to this are. Here’s what he said.

“So I have been pondering the role of the Holy Spirit; the limitaions, our expectations as well as the fathers expectations of us and the consequences of meeting or missing those expectations. First thing I needed to understand and still muddling through is does the holy spirit call others to Christ? Next, is the Holy Spirit’s interaction contingent on the salvation of an individual? Third does the Holy Spirit increase, decrease or stay the same as the progession away from the day’s of Christ and his immediate dicisiples grows older and older? Fourth and perhaps overlapping third does God’s perspective of timeexist linearly or in a large glob of all seeing all timelines at all glimpses? Turning to Acts 2 and John 14 now pray for understanding.”
 
someone else has responded to him saying

“I believe the answer to your first two questions is yes. Do you believe in the doctrine of election, otherwise known as predestination?”
 
First thing I needed to understand and still muddling through is does the holy spirit call others to Christ?
Yes. The Father sends the Son to us, and the Son is willfully obedient. The Son sends the Spirit to us, and the Spirit is willfully obedient. And in the reverse, the Spirit sends us to the Son, and we must be willfully obedient. And the Son sends us to the Father, and we must be willfully obedient.
Next, is the Holy Spirit’s interaction contingent on the salvation of an individual?
I suppose this is dependent on what he means. If he means, “whether he Holy Spirit interacts is contingent on a person’s salvation,” then the answer is no. If he means, “how the Holy Spirit interacts is contingent on a person’s salvation,” then the answer is yes.

The Baptist perspective is that when one accepts Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, they are saved. Catholics don’t strictly believe this, but let’s assume it’s true. Prior to being saved the Holy Spirit points you in the direction of Christ. After being saved, He bestows gifts, or charisms, for the Glory of God and the spreading of the Gospel for the salvation of men.

Of course, that’s in the Baptist model. Catholics believe that both of these interactions take place throughout a person’s life of Faith. That is, even after Baptism (which is the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour), the Holy Spirit continues to point us in the direction of Christ when we often wander from His path. Likewise, as we come into and fall out of grace, the Spirit indwells and leaves us respectively, often many times throughout our lives.

Ultimately, though, in death our Salvation is fixed. At this point, the kind of interaction becomes strictly indwelling and charismatic graces, as we no longer need to be pointed toward, or back toward Christ.
Third does the Holy Spirit increase, decrease or stay the same as the progession away from the day’s of Christ and his immediate dicisiples grows older and older?
I take it he means “does the activity of the Holy Spirit increase, decrease… etc.”? If so, then no, the Holy Spirit’s activity does not decrease/increase with historical nearness to Christ. The activity changes, yes. For example, during the time Before Christ, mankind we out of grace with God, and as such the Holy Spirit did not live in men, as He came to do after Christ. However, He has always pointed men to Christ, both before He arrived on earth, and after. Moreover, the life of the Holy Spirit within us is a direct response to how deeply committed and Faithful we are to the life and mission of Christ. If the Spirit seemed more active in men immediately after Christ, it may simply be that they were more saintly than we are these days.
Fourth and perhaps overlapping third does God’s perspective of timeexist linearly or in a large glob of all seeing all timelines at all glimpses? Turning to Acts 2 and John 14 now pray for understanding."
God is eternal. This means that He is not temporal. As such, His experience of moments is not as a progressive sequence, which is time, but rather all moments are present to Him at once, simultaneously. This doesn’t mean that all time is a “large glob,” which might suggest incoherence or disorder. Rather, though God doesn’t experience linear time as we do, He still sees all of time in its linear logic. That is to say, though all moments are present to Him at once, He sees and understands and knows how each moment connects cause-and-effectively to the next, and where each of us are at, spiritually speaking, in each moment.
 
My Baptist friend is asking some deep questions and I was wondering what are some catholic responses to this are. Here’s what he said.

“So I have been pondering the role of the Holy Spirit; the limitations, our expectations as well as the fathers expectations of us and the consequences of meeting or missing those expectations. First thing I needed to understand and still muddling through is does the holy spirit call others to Christ? Next, is the Holy Spirit’s interaction contingent on the salvation of an individual? Third does the Holy Spirit increase, decrease or stay the same as the progression away from the day’s of Christ and his immediate disciples grows older and older? Fourth and perhaps overlapping third does God’s perspective of time exist linearly or in a large glob of all seeing all timelines at all glimpses? Turning to Acts 2 and John 14 now pray for understanding.”
Yes, the Holy Spirit does call others to Christ in that whenever we make an offering whether it be via prayer or sacrifice and offer it to God for the salvation of souls the Holy Spirit will apply that merit where it sees fits according to God’s will.

If you are asking if all the Holy Spirit’s interactions always lead to a souls salvation I’m inclined to say, not really.

From Church history I would say the Holy Spirit increases, decreases and at times stays the same within individuals and the whole Church depending on God’s will.

My understanding is God, the Angels & Saints live beyond the vial or void outside of time in eternity, if you will. So yes God sees the beginning middle & end at once
 
My Baptist friend is asking some deep questions and I was wondering what are some catholic responses to this are. Here’s what he said.

“So I have been pondering the role of the Holy Spirit; the limitaions, our expectations as well as the fathers expectations of us and the consequences of meeting or missing those expectations. First thing I needed to understand and still muddling through is does the holy spirit call others to Christ? Next, is the Holy Spirit’s interaction contingent on the salvation of an individual? Third does the Holy Spirit increase, decrease or stay the same as the progession away from the day’s of Christ and his immediate dicisiples grows older and older? Fourth and perhaps overlapping third does God’s perspective of timeexist linearly or in a large glob of all seeing all timelines at all glimpses? Turning to Acts 2 and John 14 now pray for understanding.”
Call others to Christ? What does that mean? Which “others”?

Contingent on the individuals salvation? What does that mean…that salvation wasn’t open to all?

Why would the power of the holy spirit decrease with time? Seems like a very limted view of God’s power.

Who would pretend to know what God’s time is?

Just curious…why is your Baptist friend asking? For discussion, or debate?
 
Call others to Christ? What does that mean? Which “others”?

Contingent on the individuals salvation? What does that mean…that salvation wasn’t open to all?

Why would the power of the holy spirit decrease with time? Seems like a very limted view of God’s power.

Who would pretend to know what God’s time is?

Just curious…why is your Baptist friend asking? For discussion, or debate?
honestly I’m not sure. He’s very friendly and I know he wouldn’t be doing it for debate
 
honestly I’m not sure. He’s very friendly and I know he wouldn’t be doing it for debate
I see…well, IMHO, it’s always acceptable to say “I don’t know…it’s a mystery…but I’m ok with mystery”

😉
 
After replying to him another person replies with this.

"The Holy Spirit has been active before, during, and after pentecost, or the life of Christ or the apostles. He was there at the beginning (Gen.1:2) , and will be there at the end (Rev. 22:17). I’ll try and paraphrase Wayne Grudem to give a quick overview of this.

The Holy Spirit Empowers:
  • He gives life to all animate creatures (Ps. 104:30, and Job 34:14-15 for the negative).
    -He gives spiritual, new, life in believers (John 3:6-7, 6:63; 2 Cor. 3:6; Acts 10:44-47; Titus 3:5)
The Holy Spirit Gives Power for Service:
-Old Testament (Num. 27:18; Deut. 34:9, Judg. 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 14:6, 19, 15:14; 1 Sam. 16:13; Isa. 61:1; Mic. 3:8)
-New Testament (Matt 3:16; Luke 4:18-19; John 1:32; Rom. 15:19; 1 Pet. 1:12)

The Holy Spirit Purifies
  • 1 Cor. 6:11; Matt. 3:11; Titus 3:5; 2. Cor. 3:18; Phil. 1:19
The Holy Spirit Reveals, Gives Evidence of God’s Presence, Guides and Directs God’s People, etc. Basically there’s a TON of evidence showing the Spirit being active all throughout (and before) time in a myriad of ways.

However, the meat of your questions involves what theologians call the ordo salutis, or the order of salvation. This is a much more complex question than simply “the baptist” view or “the catholic” view presented above. As you know, I fall into the reformed (and baptist) perspective on salvation, and you can view this handy infographic to see what that looks like in a simple form. s3.amazonaws.com/Challies_VisualTheology/OrdoSalutis_Large.jpg

So it really depends on what you mean by a lot, in your questions. I would encourage you to look into what you mean by words like “call” or “regeneration” or “salvation” etc. Typically, arminian theologians will invoke what they call prevenient grace, so you’ll want to look into that, and how it plays out in salvation. Related to this would be the fall of man, and what happened exactly, as well as the atonement of Christ.

So really, this just gives you a ton more to look into, haha. But I’m happy to go into more detail on any of this.

Oh, and the relationship of God to time isn’t as simple as saying He’s outside of it. You have to define what time is (there are multiple theories of time here) , and then think through how He relates to the time He created. Related areas are how does God know future events? Does He gain knowledge by “looking” at time? Does He know because He decreed?

Clear as mud? "
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top