Pope Benedict and Bishop Williamson

[Auntie_M]

Your grandmother was Jesus? (I’m joking–He said those things too.)

Auntie, do you entertain that it is possible that what you have found to be true, isn’t the whole truth?

Maurin, I see that you are the argumentative type. I spent enough time in these chapels to know that it was not for me nor for anyone claiming to be a true catholic. You cannot fight the Vatican and expect people to believe you are a true Catholic. It doesn’t work that way. Catholism is all about submission to the will of Peter’s chair.

I know you were trying to be funny, but my grandmother was QUOTING scripture.

If what I have “found to be true, isn’t”, then I guess there is no truth in anything. What say you?

 

[Auntie_M]

It had NOTHING to do with their rejection Vatican II? That’s like saying jumping off the building didn’t kill him, hitting the ground did.

You are right, rejecting Vatican 11 didn’t excommunicate him, but his actions regarding Vatican 11 and most impoortantly his rejection of the will of the Pope by ordaining these bishops did. It was not ONE thing, it a host of things. You can disagree on matters of importance but you cannot outwardly and defiantly disobey the Vicar of Christ which is what happened.

 

[pnewton]

Be watchful and pray…you will know them by their fruits.

I know this little saying sounds trite, but your grandmother was very wise. I have considered teh possiblity I could be wrong about a lot of things, including Islam, Judaism, Mormonism and Catholicism, to name a few. That is why this hardcore Baptist boy decided to convert. I see the fruits of Catholicism *and *I studied the roots and theology behind it. In one life time no man can become an expert in all religions and sects. Just like Occam’s Razor helps us cut our some spurious ideas, so your Grandmother’s Razor (as good as name as any) helps me to decide what needs closer scrutiny. The SSPX looks at the fruit of Vatican II and rejects the advantages and considers most of the changes unprofitable. I, and you too apparently, have considered the SSPX and came to the same determination. Regretably for me, all but a couple of the SSPX I know, I met here.

 

[maurin]

Maurin, I see that you are the argumentative type.

if you say so. I’m just trying to determine whether or not you have real experience in forming the basis for your comments.

I spent enough time in these chapels to know that it was not for me nor for anyone claiming to be a true catholic.

but then again, that is the crux of my question–which you have not answered. If you have years of time spent in those Chapels, I’d say your basis is well founded. If it were just a few times, then I wouldn’t thind you do. Also, the reason I brought up the fact that I’ve been exposed to more than just a couple of SSPX Priests for a while and in different parts of the country is because I have not found–in MY experience–what you say to be accurate.

You cannot fight the Vatican and expect people to believe you are a true Catholic.

I don’t know, St. Catherine of Siena was pretty tough.

It doesn’t work that way. Catholism is all about submission to the will of Peter’s chair.

In many respects, but the most important aspect is submission to the Will of God

I know you were trying to be funny, but my grandmother was QUOTING scripture.

I realize that, and it was really meant as light-hearted. I hope it was not received as disrespectful.

If what I have “found to be true, isn’t”, then I guess there is no truth in anything. What say you?

I say sometimes our senses deceive us. I say that if the Priests at the Parish which is 100 yards from my home were the yardstick against which one were to judge the mindset of the entire Church, the Church would be in BIG trouble. So my question about your “time spent” in SSPX Chapels, and the one about “entertaining the possibility” that what you found to be the truth isn’t necessarily the full truth about the Society is along this vein. One experience, or narrow experience does not necessarily lead to the correct experience.

Do you call me argumentative (you did say, “Maurin, I see you are the argumentative type”) because I disagree with you, and have not had the same experience in 3 Chapels that you have only had, as far as you have told me, in one?

 

[DavidPalm]

The one thing that I kept asking and no one could answer, “Why would they want to be in communion with Rome, if Rome is so bad?” No one has offered a reason why they held themselves out to be “in communion” when, in reality they were excommunicated.

I would suggest that the answer is that every traditionally-minded Catholic, no matter how scandalized by the post-conciliar novelties, knows that he must maintain communion with Rome in order to be Catholic. If he is not in communion with Rome, he is outside of the Church and, having a traditional mindset, he knows that he can’t really fudge around with categories like “partial communion”.

So he knows in his gut that he’s either in full communion with the Roman Pontiff or he runs the risk of hellfire. But obviously the SSPX is in an irregular situation with regard to Rome and that should cause some anxiety. So various different explanations are given to explain the irregular situation while still insisting on being in communion with Rome. Some of these explanations are more convincing than others and I’m not evaluating them here. I’m just trying to answer your initial question which is why they would insist that they are in full communion with Rome while still having lots of negative things to say about Rome.

 

[Crimsonflyboy]

Hello everyone, I am looking for some help on this topic. Last weekend I attended a TLM for the first time. I found the Mass beautiful and very much appreciate the tradition. However I have read some things about the SSPX that have me worried. Is the SSPX in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI? Is it ok to attend the TLM?

 

[pnewton]

However I have read some things about the SSPX that have me worried. Is the SSPX in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI? Is it ok to attend the TLM?

No, they are not. And yes, it is perfectly fine to attend the TLM, but not at the SSPX. Might I suggest you do a serach on the Ask an Apologist section and they will provide more details.

 

[DavidPalm]

And yes, it is perfectly fine to attend the TLM, but not at the SSPX. Might I suggest you do a serach on the Ask an Apologist section and they will provide more details.

The section at the top of this forum called SSPX: Documents contains a link to this direction from the Vatican that, while not recommended, one can indeed fulfill his Sunday obligation at a Mass offered by the SSPX:

Letter Regarding Society of St. Pius X Masses

There’s no need to be more strict than the Vatican concerning the SSPX.

 

[pnewton]

The section at the top of this forum called SSPX: Documents contains a link to this direction from the Vatican that, while not recommended, one can indeed fulfill his Sunday obligation at a Mass offered by the SSPX:

Letter Regarding Society of St. Pius X Masses

There’s no need to be more strict than the Vatican concerning the SSPX.

I am not. It is however necessary to read more carefully these documents and not to just look for what you want to see. Even in my post you missed the fact that I am not more strict than the Vatican. What I will say again is that it is not perfectly fine to attend an SSPX. Yes, it does fulfill the Sunday Obligation if you do. It also fulfills one Sunday obligation to go to Mass in a bathing suit and flipflops, if you get through the door, but that is not perfectly fine either. The two are separate questions. Let us look as what this document says after it says that in* the strictest sense* an SSPX Mass fulfills one’s obligation.

“1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X.”
His second question was “Is it a sin for me to attend a Pius X Mass” and we responded stating:
“2. We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.”

Also, it says:

2.) Concretely this means that the Masses offered by these priests are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to the law of the Church.

and for the sake of balance.

“3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass could be justified.”

Ane finally

"You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a ‘right’ to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct.

 

[DavidPalm]

I am not. It is however necessary to read more carefully these documents and not to just look for what you want to see. Even in my post you missed the fact that I am not more strict than the Vatican. What I will say again is that it is not perfectly fine to attend an SSPX.

You’re right, I missed the precise wording of your comment. My fault.

 

[pnewton]

You’re right, I missed the precise wording of your comment. My fault.

I should have expanded from the begining. It is a complex issue and I was being lazy. There are so many variables as to when it would be prudent and when it would not be prudent to attend the SSPX chapels. I hesitate to say “sinful” because that only applies in a narrow range of people.

 

[Auntie_M]

Would 4 years be enough for you, Maurin? I think the Latin mass is beautiful, but not at a society church. Their beliefs and mine are not the same. I have seen the effect it has had on previously very devout people. One of very humble submission to the Pope to one of outright rebellion.

While our Holy Father has said that it was “OK” to attend a society mass, but it was not recommended as you will fall into the mindset of the society, which is not a good thing.

If a latin mass is all you want to attend, going to a society church to do this is really putting your “wants” ahead of the church’s. Whatever has changed in the church, let God fix it, in other words “wait for a Latin Mass that is in communion with Rome”. In the meantime, be thankful you have a mass to go to at all. There have been times past that a mass was not allowed and had to be done in secret.

 

[maurin]

Would 4 years be enough for you, Maurin? I think the Latin mass is beautiful, but not at a society church. Their beliefs and mine are not the same. I have seen the effect it has had on previously very devout people. One of very humble submission to the Pope to one of outright rebellion.

yes, I’d say 4 years is much more than a fair amount of time in order to form a legitimate basis for what you have written! Remember Auntie, all I have done is ask. Thank you for telling me.

I think I know how you feel…I spent a couple of years in the C&L movement at a couple of my Parishes in the past. Their practices are not mine.

While our Holy Father has said that it was “OK” to attend a society mass, but it was not recommended as you will fall into the mindset of the society, which is not a good thing.

it depends on the mindset you encountered. Although your experiences were clearly negative for you, mine have been quite the opposite.

If a latin mass is all you want to attend, going to a society church to do this is really putting your “wants” ahead of the church’s. Whatever has changed in the church, let God fix it, in other words “wait for a Latin Mass that is in communion with Rome”.

unfortunately, Auntie, “I have seen the effect” such waiting “has had on previously very devout people.” One of humble submission to the Ordinary of the Dioces and the Ordinary of the Parish which lead to a crisis of Faith.

In the meantime, be thankful you have a mass to go to at all. There have been times past that a mass was not allowed and had to be done in secret.

My experience in the Dioceses in which I have lived is what lead to a crisis in Faith. Listening to Pastors questioning the CHurch’s teachings on Morals, on Marian Dogmas, allowing lay people (and in one case a non-Catholic lay person) preach at the Holy Mass all lead to my decision to leave these Parishes.

If I had encountered any of the things you allege–and I only use allege, because you have been vague, not citing anything specific that you had heard–I probably would leave the Society also. But like I said, I have not. I would like to tell you, though, that I really do not doubt that you had the experiences you had. I say this because there is one layperson at the Chapel whose opinions around the coffee pot really disturb me. However, others usually will silence this person. If others did not, I would be re-thinking my attendance.

I am–just me, noone else need feel the same way-- more at peace in my heart at the SSPX Masses than I have ever been at the Diocesan ones.